Shhh Pat help

[sopbrew]

Hi

Im not totally sure where my post should be we have a few issues. We got rid of the dummy 2 weeks ago and sleep improved almost straight away but the last couple of days its all gone up in the air. We used Shh Pat to get her to sleep, we are still having to pat her off to sleep and during her naps to help her transition. The nights are bad at the moment and she is waking every 2 hours for the whold night. Im concerned that we should be using a different technique during the night, do you think she is waking as she knows we will go in there and sit and pat her? We cant do PU/PD as we use a SafeTsleep wrap.

I have tried all sorts with her naps and im totally lost as to what routine to do during the day. The day i tried the 1hr nap in the morning and the 1.5hr nap in the afternoon was the night she start waking ever two hours.

I would appreciate any suggestions,

Thanks Sophie x

(she is 9months)

[~Sara~]

Hi Sophie   Could you post what her day looked like for either today or yesterday?  Let's see if we can get some insight from that.  Just wondering if this is a sleep window issue...but it's possible that she finds the shh/pat disruptive now that she's older.

Will wait for your reply...

[sopbrew]

Hello

Wake- 7.00
Activity
sleep-10.30  1hr
activity
Sleep- 2.45  1hr 15mins
Activity
Bed- 7.15

This was what i tried a couple of days ago, she still woke every two hours in the night so i then tried extending the A time further but last night was so terrible. She screamed for over and hour non stop and that was at 11pm, she then continued to wake every few hours and woke very early. We are feeling quite desperate today as we just dont know what we can do next.

Thanks x

[mdavza]

It sounds to me like agrowth spurt, maybe?  Could you try feeding her much more during the day and see if this helps?  It's sooo hard, I know!

[~Sara~]

Okay, so for my own clarification...you woke her up for that first nap after 1 hour?  Is that correct?  It might be that she wasn't ready to wake up yet from that nap, couldn't handle a full A time afterward nor another shorter nap followed again by a long A time.  I think she was just OT by the end of the day.

But, another thing to consider, do you think the shh/pat is a prop for her?  Have you ever been able to lay her down awake and have her go to sleep by herself?  When does she wake up in her naps (like, after 30, 35, 40 minutes)?

[sopbrew]

Hi

i didnt wake her for the first nap, i had been patting and at the hour mark she just sprung her eyes open and she was awake. The last couple of days we have been putting her down leaving the room, returning if she is crying reasuring her with a few words and then she has gone off to sleep. For naps she stirs at the 30min mark, sometimes needs patting to resettle, then again at the 40 min mark and again i pat to settle, then the hour mark then she can wake 5, 10 or 15 mins after that.  I can keep her asleep with a few pats but then after that hour when she wakes there is no going back to sleep x

[~Sara~]

Okay...at this age, I think you should get firmer with resettling, as in, hang back and let her resettle herself if she wakes up early from a nap or at night.  You're doing a great job at letting her send herself off to sleep initially, but let's see if by you not patting, she'll resettle herself.  Just don't want the shh/pat to become a prop, iykwim.  Going all the way back up to your original post, it could be that the shh/pat is a prop at night, but it could be OT/UT, too.  Not sure exactly what you do at night, but DH and I have a rule that if DS wakes up during the night, we don't go into his room unless he's crying his "I need you!!" cry.  That means that if he's cooing, babbling, fussing, or mantra crying, we leave him to it...even if it means it goes on for 10 minutes or an hour....I think that might help you rule out any prop issues with shh/pat at night.  PU/PD is a measure of last resort, so let's see if by gradually reducing the shh/pat help you give her (assuming she really, really needs it) will help before we move on to PU/PD.

Also, related to props, do you think it might be time to wean the swaddle?  It might be a rough few days while she gets used to the sensation of her hands being out, but I think it's worth considering.

Now, about those naps.  Does/Has she always wake up at the 30 minute mark into her nap?

So far as her routine goes, is she showing sleepy signs at the 3.5h mark?  Or do you feel that her sleep window is being missed?  Since you're there with her everyday, I'd like to get a feel for what you think she's sleeping (is she grumpy or happy when she wakes?  does she fight going to sleep?).

Sorry for the 20 questions, I'm just trying to hone in on what the underlying issue is.

[sopbrew]

Hello, let's start with the sshhh/pat; Last night she woke three or four times - she cried but we didn't go in we just left her to it and she re-settled and went back off to sleep.  Which is great and we'll keep that going at night.  Today, for both of her naps and at bed time tonight she has gone down and gone to sleep with no help and very little fussing.

Ok, now for the naps; since she was tiny she has never gone past the 40 minute mark unless the dummy was still in.  She's a highly spirited baby and doesn't really settle down into a really deep sleep when she naps.  The 30 minute wake-up started a month or two ago - I only noticed it if the dummy dropped out before the 30 minute mark otherwise she would stay asleep if the dummy was still in her mouth.  Since getting rid of the dummy, apart from once or twice she has woken at the 30 minute mark every nap time..  I think I mentioned before that she also stirs at the 40 minute and the 60 minute and the 75 minute mark.

I have been staying by her bedside and when I see her stir and I know that she's going to wake up I start patting before she wakes up to keep her asleep.  I continue to do this through out the nap so that she gets a good sleep.  Do you think I should continue to do this and she'll learn to pass through?  Or do you think I should let her wake and then try to re-settle herself?  I did actually let her wake at the 30 minute mark today but she just got more and more upset and her arms and legs were all over the place and she was not going to go back to sleep.  So, I stated patting and she went back off to sleep.  For her second nap she had an A time of 3 hours 50 minutes and she stirred at 30 and 40 minute marks but didn't wake.  But then she woke at the 50 minute mark - I patted and she went back off.  I was pleased that she managed the first half of her sleep without waking up but is this a bit strange that she woke at 50 mins?

As for being grumpy or happy when she wakes: if she wakes at the 30 mins she cries.  But then she mostly cries when she wakes up all the time!

I'm so desperate to get these naps a bit more consistent - can you offer any more help?

[~Sara~]

Have you tried wake to sleep to see if that can reset her sleep cycle so that she doesn't wake up at 30 minutes?  To give it a fair shot, you'd do it for every nap, about 10 minutes before she normally wakes up, for 3-5 days.  Here's a link that describes how to do it:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

Also, if she is spirited, it might be that she is a short napper; to account for that, you have to reduce the A time after the short nap.

You can try to continue with the patting to resettle her, but at her age, I'm just afraid that it's turning into (or will turn into) a prop.  You might give it another few days--try the wake to sleep and be there (out of her line of sight) in case she wakes.  If she wakes, resettle.  After those first 3-5 days (a week, even), you'll be able to tell if the w2s has worked.  If not, keep patting back to sleep for a few days.  If her sleep pattern hasn't "righted" itself by this point--if it's not her natural biorhythm--then I think you need to start weaning the patting.

How did yesterday go?

[sopbrew]

Hi

Yesterday was Saturday and my Husban was around so she had her first nap in the car which was fine because she stays asleep in the car. Her second nap was not great, she really screamed going down, woke at 30min really upset, again at 40mins both times we patted back to sleep she then went into a deep sleep and i had to wake her as it was getting late. Our nights i would like some advice on if you can. the first part of the night is great and she rarely wakes up, when we get to about 3am she wakes and then form then untill get up time she wakes about every hour and its quite unsettled. She will drop off for  few mins then wake and this pattern goes on for about 45mins. Im guessing some pary of my day needs changing to get her to stay asleep in the early hours?

Thanks for you help

[~Sara~]

Could you post her routine for yesterday (or today, depending on where you are)?

Do you think she's teething at all?  That can mess with sleep.

[sopbrew]

Hi

I have a question about W2S. Im currently going in 20mins after she falls to sleep. This is working great and we have not had a 30min wake up since i started. The problem is that she then stirs at 40mins and if im not there patting to keep her asleep she wakes very upset. So do i need to go in again at 30mins to stir her to get rid of the 40 min wake up? or should i work on one at a time? When i have done the W2S for one week do i then just try one sleep with out intervention and see what happens? What if it just goes back to normal?

Sophie

[~Sara~]

Hi Sophie.  It's kind of hard to tell what's going on...nap extending techniques won't work if there's something going on with, say, her A times.  Could you please post what her day looked like (doesn't have to be perfect or pretty--few of us have those kinds of days); but being able to see her day will really help me see if there's anything going on.

At 9 months, unless she's used to you extending her naps for her (i.e. there's a prop issue), or she's always been a short napper, then short naps are mainly a routine issue.

[sopbrew]

Since she was tiny she always woke at 40 mins and i lived with this for months. When she got older and better at keeping the dummy in then sometimes she would take 1.5hrs. We have had so many problems lately that i have tried different things each day with her routine. This is sort of what happens

Wake 6.30
Activity
Sleep 10.00    (Can be 1hr, 1.15, 1.20)
Activity
Sleep 2.45      Same as above
Activity
Bed 7.30

This is very rough

[~Sara~]

Hi there...sorry I've been MIA, I've been under the weather and not able to get online as I would have liked

I think that if she's always done short naps and you've tried anything and everything to get her to nap longer and she doesn't, that it's probably her biorhythm.  Not every baby takes long naps.

I don't mean to sound dismissive; but if she's truly a short napper by nature, nothing that we do will change that.

What you CAN do, however, is make sure that if she takes a short nap, reduce the following A time, and move bedtime forward a little bit or add a 3rd nap (on really short nap days).

How have the past few days gone?