7 month old - 2 hour nw 10pm-12pm

[*Carrie*]

For the past 4 nights my 7mo, Cammie, has woken and stayed awake for around two hours despite all attempts to help him go back to sleep.

I'm wondering if that's a classic sign of UT and I need to stretch his A times or cut his nap... or OT and I need to get him to bed earlier.

He is teething at the moment and very congested which bothers his sleep so maybe it is just that but surely he would be able to get back to sleep with help?

He has always seemed to be on the low end for sleep needs   and he hit the 3 hour A time well before 6 months. We are still doing 3 hours A or 3 hours 15 sometimes. He goes down for his two naps really easily and will sleep between 1.5 and 2 hours. (A couple of weeks ago I started waking him at 1.5 hours because he seemed to struggle to get to sleep at bedtime if he had more than 3 hours daytime sleep)

Our day then
7.30 Up, E - bottle of formula, followed by solids 30 mins later
10.30/10.45 S Max 2 hour sleep
12.45 E as above
3.45 S - 1 .5 hours
5.15 - solids
6.30 Bath, massage, bottle
7.45/8 S

Then, typically, he'll wake around the 10 mark if not earlier and DH and I will attempt to resettle him. We DF about 10.30 and continue trying to resettle him until he finally zonks out around 11/11.30pm. During that time he will start the process of going to sleep but then come to again and need more help. He is generally not a self-soother or self-settler (something to work on when he is well) but he can do it through the night sometimes and he was getting a lot more independent at going to sleep before the dreaded teething and a chest infection hit.

The past three nights have been good in that once he has managed to get to sleep with all this help he has then slept right through til 7 or 7.30 which is better than needing help at 3am as he has frequently done before (although for 15 mins NOT 2 hours)... so he CAN manage a long stretch of 8 hours.... best go cook tea! Thanks for any wise words!

[*Liz*]

Sounds like UT to me Carrie as that last A is pretty short and I think a long nap that late in the day will likely be rebounding into night sleep at this age.

Which means you will need to limit one of the naps to 1hr only.

Have you any preference as to which one?

Always a bit harder to tell when they are not independent sleepers though as the prop questions always lingers a bit. Sure you know that though  .

I had to switch J to a 1hr am nap at 8 mths old as well - seemed a bit daft at the time but we then held that routine for a good few months. Until the 2-1 chaos really  .

[*Carrie*]

Really?? That A time of 2.5 - 3 hours is a bit short? I was worrying that it was a bit long as I thought A times generally decreased over the day?
I'll have to have a think about which nap to shorten as each day is always a bit different - pitfalls of being a second child I'm afraid! It will probably be the morning one as afternoons tend to be in the house except Fridays...Thing is that he was probably doing this himself last week - he started having a shorter nap in the pm when he had a 2 hour nap in the morning... and that was worrying me! He wasn't doing this 2 hour wake period then!!!!!! Just brief NWs later in the night which we believe is down to his congestion.... ho hum....

Mind you, it's 15 mins after his "usual waking time" and he has coughed a bit but isn't crying out.... today his naps were 2 hour am and just over an hour pm... interesting....

Thanks Liz, all good food for thought...

[*Liz*]

A's generally increase as the day goes on. Some babies do decrease them but it is more common for them to extend.

My DS did decrease as the day went on but when he was doing 3-3.5hrs A for the first and second A I would have done 3hrs last thing after a good nap. Certainly wouldn't have managed 3.5hrs, but I wouldn't have needed to go all the way down to 2.5hrs either.

Just depends which way your lo likes to do it really.

It might just simply be that 3.5hrs of day sleep is getting a bit much really.

[*Carrie*]

OK - thanks Liz. We had a slightly better experience last night. Will be interesting to see what happens tonight. I cut his morning nap to one hour then he only had a 40 min catnap due to his big brother breaking his leg and all the passing around that entailed! Going to be interesting around here for the next wee while!

[*Liz*]

Oh no Carrie huge ((hugs)) for your big lo 

Poor thing.

[*Carrie*]

Thanks Liz - after two wake ups crying I managaed to persuade his to have some calpol night and then he slept well and is feeling alright this morning...
Great thing was Cammie slept fantastically and my husband said he was a "dream" to put to bed! That was on about 1 hour 50mins daytime sleep and an A time of over 3 hours before bed!!!! Think I have no idea how little daytime sleep he has been needing... I may post to see if anyone experienced in this can relate what they were doing... (under two hours seems totally wrong but the other most recent time he slept right through he had only had one hour daytime sleep (2 x 30 mins) - oh my goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[*Liz*]

I doubt he needs that little day after day really - but that at the moment you are getting great naps and that is robbing your day sleep as he just doesn't need both. It is great that he caught up overnight but everyday would likely lead to OT, especially if it was cut that quickly.

I would say the first step is a 1hr am nap and then the pm nap will likely be 1.5hrs - and that is actually a big reduction already from 3.5hrs sleep to 2.5hrs sleep. Then likely 3-3.5hrs to bedtime.

And then it is really about the sleep structure rather than the total amount to make sure the A's are long enough to tire him out properly.

Don't be tempted to go tto fast though. I have seen so many posts lately about low sleep needs lo's who do need to extend A's and reduce naps but unfortunately if you go too fast it becomes a HUGE mess. I guess you remember the 2-1 with your first DS though?

Glad your big LO is coping OK  . How did he break it?

[*Carrie*]

Thanks Liz - we'll carry on like that (1 hr am and 1.5 hr pm) and see how it goes.

Rory fractured a bone in his shin by twisting when he landed at his Tumbletots class - it was the smallest of jumps - classic sign of a "toddler fracture" in that after the initial pain eased he felt fine unless he tried to put his weight on it. Great experience at the A and E - accident happened at 1.40pm and we were leaving the hospital with the plastercast done by 4pm! Now we've just giot to keep him off it for another day or so....

[*Liz*]

Oh bless him  I bet the tumbletots staff were horrified as well.

Hopefully the plaster cast will keep the pain at bay - and in a week or so when he gets his fracture clinic review he should get to pick what colour he wants for a replacement!!

[*Carrie*]

I just lost my reply! How annoying!!!!!
Anyway, the staff were great. I think it was lucky that the main instructor was in charge of him at the time because she is experienced enough to know there was nothing she could have done differently. She still gave me a phone in the evening tho!
Back to Cammie - thanks for you help with him. I do need to iron out some bumps because having cut his morning nap to an hour yesterday and today he didn't manage an hour and a half for his pm nap. It was 40 mins yesterday but probably due to all the excitement and being with Mummy, then Daddy, then finally Grandma. Today it was an hour and 10... do you think I might need to change the A length between the naps? Today it was just under 3.5 hours... probably too long?

[*Liz*]

When I first cut J's am nap to 1hr the A between the 2 was 3hrs and then over time it increased to 3.5hrs.

That was when he was 8 mths old.

So I'd give that a try and see if it helps any 

[*Carrie*]

Thanks 

[*Carrie*]

Hi Liz,
I was going to update you with how fantastically things were going but then of course it all changed! Can you take a look at my new post?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=165774.0
Thanks xxx

[*Liz*]

Hi - I will pop over and have a look  .

I'll lock this one as well since you have a new post  .