Author Topic: Sugar water to stop NW's?  (Read 1742 times)

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Offline essexlemon

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Sugar water to stop NW's?
« on: January 30, 2010, 22:44:47 pm »
My 11 month old DS has had issues with NW forever!

At the same time that I bought the BW books, I bought another book so that I could compare the two and see which routine worked best for DS.  I watched him for cues of sleepiness and the BW seemed to fit his natural rythms a bit better so I went with that.  It helped his daytime mood immeasurably but we've had ongoing issues with NW (partly due to reflux).

I think the sleep deprivation must have been getting to me the first time I read the other book because I missed a really interesting bit on colic which I'm not sure whether it would help me now.  She says that if an older baby is waking for feeds (if they are gaining weight at more than the recommended rate but still waking for extra feeds), to give them water mixed with half a teaspoon of water for a week, then reduce the amount of sugar in the bottle each day.  She says plain boiled water won't have the same effect.  Apparently, the sugar helps with the pain of colic.  She also says that it shouldn't rot their teeth because you'll be doing it over such a short period.

The thing is that I have been trying to top DS up during the day to 'fill that daytime tummy', but he just won't have it.  He will take plain tap water during the day, but refuses it and screams at night (I tried giving him water in case he was thirsty rather than hungry).  Has anyone else tried anything similar to reduce night wakings, and did it work?

I'm a bit worried that he might start refusing to take unsweetened water during the day if I give him sweet water at night, but I'm guessing that if it is in the night he won't make the connection with his daytime drinks.

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 00:10:02 am by Peek-a-boo »
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Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 00:27:29 am »
Hi--

To be honest, that's not an idea I'd be comfortable with personally, but I think that's partly personal bias against sugar, lol. :)  It's also in part because I think of colic as something that affects babies from 0-4 months and generally fades by then.  Is there something about your LO's behavior at the night wakings that make you think of it as "colic?"

I'm wondering if we could ferret out a different solution.  Could you post your current EASY routine?  How often is your LO waking at night?  At how many of those wakings do you feed? 

How does he fall asleep the beginning of sleeps?  Is it independent?  Are you in the room or out when he drifts off?

Offline brenda2

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 01:50:58 am »
he's 11 mo...are you sure he's hungry when he wakes at night?  he shouldn't really need extra feeds at night at this age, it may be more habit than hunger or related to routine or props as pp suggests.

i think there are other ways to reduce nws than giving sugar water, it's not something i would do. 

what do you currently do when he wakes?  do you feed him?  PD? wiwo? cuddles?

both my dds were eating a lot at night and refusing to eat more during the day until i cut out the nighttime feeds.  after i refused to feed them at night they ate more during the day and shortly after that they stopped waking at night.
   

   


Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 03:14:54 am »
Agreeing with Brenda that at 11 months old your baby likely doesn't need the night feed, but it's a matter of finding a way you feel comfy with to shift the calories from night time to day time. 

In thinking about the sugar water suggestion, I'm wondering if the rationale is something along these lines . . . the sugar in the water makes it more appealing to baby so baby will take it when they wouldn't just take water; this lets them suck (as they're used to) and provides a few calories to tide them over  a time when they're used to getting calories (even though they don't NEED to be taking those calories during the night time), so creates a gradual way to shift the calories to day time and ultimately end the night feeding.

It reminds of the idea in this FAQ to water down the formula in the bottle as a means of shifting calories to day time:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

Offline essexlemon

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 20:48:35 pm »
Thanks guys.

I think I will give the formula idea a go.  My mum suggested something similar a few days ago but I wasn't sure so it's good to see someone else has had success with that.  I think he is hungry, but I don't think he really needs the calories if that makes sense.  He has been eating like a bird for the past few months (I think due to a recurrent chest infection and teething) but the past week he has started eating like a horse and still wakes up for an extra feed.

It started out as just a varying amount, between 2 and 7oz so I was confused about whether he was actually hungry, but now he takes 6oz without fail.  Oddly, when DH feeds him, he will sometimes demand a SECOND BOTTLE :(

His EASY is a bit all over the place because of spacing his solid and liquid feeds, but it looks something like this.

Awake time anything between 6 and 8.30 but usually around 7.30ish (this is a recent mercy, we used to have EW's too)  When it's really early I pull all his times back a bit, but if he wakes after 7 I keep all the times the same.  Usually anything before 6.30 will be down to nappy leakage so he's not really ready to get up - we're doubling up his nappies but it still happens.

E  7.30         Breast feed - both sides.
E  8.30/9      Breakfast - was eating just a few spoonfuls, but is now up to a weetabix and a half or similar
E  11.30       Breast feed - both sides.  I admit that I feed to sleep at this one.  He used to put himself to sleep
                  (provided he was in the buggy and not his cot) but I found he wouldn't go down for his next nap until
                  quite late and that pushed bedtime too late.
A  7.30 - 11.30
S  11.30 - 2  He was only doing about 1.30 to 2 hours, but the last week he started to do 2.30 (although yesterday
                  and today we got short naps I think due to teething)
E  2pm         Solids - he was eating next to nothing, and had to be all fully pureed, but suddenly he is eating quite
                  well, and complains if there are no lumps!  I usually give him a yogurt or broken up pieces of soft fruit
                  for him to feed himself for afters.  He ALWAYS eats the yogurt - I know there is something mega wrong
                  if he won't eat his yogurt!
E  4/4.30     Formula feed (SMA Gold) - again, this used to be about 3 - 4oz, but is currently around 7 - 8oz
E  6.30/6.45 Formula feed (SMA Hungry Baby) usually about 7oz, but sometimes he will drain the bottle and take up
                  to another 5oz from a second bottle.
A 2 - 6.30
S                Again, we tend to feed to sleep here, or at least cuddle until he's drowsy - he's reflux so I haven't tried
                  PU/PD - mainly because in the night I've never been certain that he's not in pain (we used to have
                  multiple, very long - up to 3 hours - NW's) and I don't want to use it at bedtime and then not follow
                  through in the night.

At the night feed he usually falls asleep on the bottle and carries on drinking, then wakes up the second I lay him down but that isn't a problem (at the moment) as he will rub his head quite hard on the sheets while I leave the room and then babble quitely to himself until he goes to sleep about ten minutes later.  He used to do this for DH when we started formula feeds at bedtime (he was exclusively BF until 10 months) but he stopped self-soothing and needed a cuddle when his top teeth came through.

We were having a wake up anything from 11pm to 3am, but the Hungry Baby formula seems to have pushed this to about 2.30 the past few nights (we've only been trying this type of formula for a few nights).  In the night I give him SMA Gold and he takes anything from 5oz to 14oz (if DH does the night feed he tends to demand a second bottle - not sure why).

Sorry this is so long.  I know there is a lot of AP in there but it's mostly because I haven't known what to do about PU/PD when he is in pain.  I'm fairly certain that when he was still suffering with the reflux he was feeding to sooth the pain, and it has gradually turned into a habbit feed.

I'm going to try the gradually reducing formula idea but if anyone does have any comments on our EASY I'd be grateful - we have had odd nights where he has STTN after short napping (one hour at lunch time and refused a later nap), but I think that was probably just coincidence.
My husband is running 13.1 miles in the Great North Run in memory of my brother. Please can you help us raise funds for the Cardiomyopathy Association in his memory?
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Offline deb

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 21:36:54 pm »
Is he on any meds for the reflux? If he's in pain b/c of it, the meds can help with that. Also, if he's refluxing, that huge feed at night might be part of the picture too. Not sure how to work around it if he IS that hungry (sounds like it!), except to maybe offer a small portion of solids like a dessert a while after the 4PM feed. That might fill him up with something heavy enough to stay down as long as it's not too close to bedtime, and maybe he won't feel like he needs to drink so much before bed.

But I agree that I would NOT go with sugar water, day or night. For some babies, especially if they've been on antibiotics (which can disrupt digestion by killing the "good" gut bacteria along with any infection), sugar can actually give them worse tummy troubles. If he's been on antibiotics ever, probiotics can often help with "routine" tummy stuff. You can get chewables (my kids like FloraBears - yummy!) or you can get powder that you can mix with milk or formula in bottles at many health food stores, usually in a refrigerated section.

Offline essexlemon

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 14:29:33 pm »
Sorry, I just realised I missed off his tea at 5.  He normally has a bit of toast, banana or rice pudding.  He's not a big eater at this one though.  I've tried giving him another small milk feed at tyea to keep him topped up but he refuses it.  He'll hasppily take water with all his solid feeds though.

He's on Domperidone and Omeprazole for the reflux which have helped (the NW's used to be much longer and more frequent - I used to snatch about 3 hours sleep a night at times) but this seems to be just a residual problem that's been left over from all the problems we had before.

That's really good to know about the chewable probiotics.  I used to drink loads of the yogurts hoping some would get into my milk so I'll give those a go.

He's teething (AGAIN) quite badly at tyhe mo but I'm forging ahead with the reduced formula anyway otherwise we'll never get anywhere.

I'm not sure if the huge night feedis a comfort thing.  The amount he's taking has increased again with the teething so I'm not convinced he really wants it but it seems a lot to take if he's not really hungry.
My husband is running 13.1 miles in the Great North Run in memory of my brother. Please can you help us raise funds for the Cardiomyopathy Association in his memory?
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Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 22:18:28 pm »
It may be that he's needing the increased calories, it's just a matter of getting them shifted to day time. 

{{Hugs}} Hope his teeth come through quickly and the water-down formula does the trick!

Offline essexlemon

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 19:34:44 pm »
He doesn't seem to be teething so badly now although the teeth still aren't through.  The trouble is that since he started this bought of teething he doesn't go off to sleep on his own in the night - he used to drop off on the bottle, then wake up as I laid him down and then kind of whisper-babble himself to sleep but he has stopped doing this - if I don't lay him down gently enough for him to stay asleep he screams until I pick him up and just sit with him laid in my lap until he goes back to sleep.  He does still go through to the morning after this, but I'm worried that the only bit of self-soothing he was doing is now disapearing.

I'm fairly confident now that the reflux is under control, and that he isn't in total agony with the teething so I'm not sure whether to start trying pu/pd when he doesn't go down easily after his feed in the night.  Also DH managed to get him back to sleep without a bottle last night (although we did have an extra wake up) so I'm hopeful that the plan is working with regard to cutting the feed out but I'm not sure if we are still going to be stuck with a habbit wake-up. 

I've noticed as well that although he's heavily reliant on a dummy he has started to suck on his lovey if he loses it and this sometimes does the trick, but not all that often.  Should I start looking at weaning his dummy or wait until I've weaned the night feed before I try this?

Am I just overly complicating things if I start trying to look at the self-soothing problem while I'm cutting the night feed.  Should I just get that gone first and just see what happens or should I be tackling it all at once?
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Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 23:52:09 pm »
At 11 months, honestly, I'd tackle it all at once.  If you've been watering down the feeds for a bit so he's getting fewer calories, I'd be inclined to pick a time you can commit to sticking with it and ditching the feeds and the paci (or at least making him responsible for replugging and not longer doing it for him).  It sounds like there are several props here and you're unlikely to get solid nights until they're all gone.  :-\

Offline brenda2

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2010, 23:59:50 pm »
i agree with bethany.

honestly i've done sleep training twice and the hardest thing was psyching myself up to do it.  i was expecting it to be so hard (and it was , but not as hard as i thought).  but once i committed to it and it was done my los started sttn pretty quickly and so did i and i wondered why i hadn't done it sooner!
   

   


Offline essexlemon

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 19:32:59 pm »
If I'm doing pu/pd in the night, does that mean that I have to use it at nap time.  I ask because for the last few weeks DS has consistently done 3 hours at 11.30 after feeding to sleep and he's been seriously cheerful in the afternoons right up to bedtime.  He sleeps in his buggy in the back of our lounge (reclined but not fully reclined).  He seems to sleep more soundly in there than he does in his cot too - could that be down to the reflux?

When he had the two naps he seemed to have different rules for each one (self-soothing in the mornings and a 2 mile route march in the afternoon, bedtimes he fed to sleep) so I think he would probably be ok with keeping the nap the way it is.  What do you think?  I think the main issue that's been stopping me from starting sleep training is that I don't want to risk losing that good nap during the day.  Also, although we used to have really long, really frequent wake ups, now that he has been going back to sleep easily after a feed I only have the tolerance for an hour and a half wake up - after that I flip out and have a mini breakdown and I'm guessing that I could be up for much longer than that for at least the first week.  Am I just being pesimistic - are wake ups really the 2 hour plus kind that I'm imagining when you start sleep training?
My husband is running 13.1 miles in the Great North Run in memory of my brother. Please can you help us raise funds for the Cardiomyopathy Association in his memory?
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Offline brenda2

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 20:01:09 pm »
Am I just being pesimistic - are wake ups really the 2 hour plus kind that I'm imagining when you start sleep training?

well every lo is different.  when i weaned nightfeeds with dd1 i had 1x90 min wakeups for 2 nights and then she sttn.  with dd2 i had 4 or 5 or 6 x30min wakeups for 3 nights and then she sttn.


If I'm doing pu/pd in the night, does that mean that I have to use it at nap time.  I ask because for the last few weeks DS has consistently done 3 hours at 11.30 after feeding to sleep and he's been seriously cheerful in the afternoons right up to bedtime.  He sleeps in his buggy in the back of our lounge (reclined but not fully reclined).  He seems to sleep more soundly in there than he does in his cot too - could that be down to the reflux?

it could be that he is used to the buggy to sleep and it has become a prop and that is why he has a hard time settling at night in his crib.  he is too used to being rocked to sleep in the buggy.  while i think that you should switch him to naps in the crib as well as nights in the crib you can probably keep naps as they are(in hte buggy) and work on night sleep separately and still see results as long as you are  consistent at night.  i would stop all feeding to sleep for naps and night though.
   

   


Offline essexlemon

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Re: Sugar water to stop NW's?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 20:19:25 pm »
I agree that I'm going to have to start pu/pd but I may have to hold off for the moment as DS has a nasty cold and I think I can feel a couple of those pesky teeth that have been trying to break through.

I'm going to keep the nap in the buggy for now once I start, as he really does seem to crash out really well there.  I've found to be honest that if I try to rock him off in the buggy it won't work and if he wakes and I rock him he's guaranteed not to go back off.  He sometimes cries out and then resettles himself so I tend to busy myself upstairs so I can't get to him so quickly.  He's always been quite firm about how he likes to go to sleep - like when he had an afternoon nap there was no way he would let me feed him to sleep (I tried a few times when the weather was bad and I couldn't face a trek in the rain) - but in the morning he didn't like the buggy to move.

One thing I'm not sure about with the age appropriate side - I know at this age it's supposed to be more just put down but he can't stand yet so doesn't pull himself up.  How long do I actually hold him for - is it literally up, key phrase and plonk him back down, or do I hold him for a couple of seconds each time so he has a short chance to calm down?  Once he's in the cot, if he's crying hard (which is likely), do I leave him for a few seconds and then pick him up, or just pick him straight back up again?  He can't stand yet or pull himself up so should I follow the instructions for 6-8 months.

I'm sorry to be so indecisive, it's just that I want to know I've got it right before I start as if I get confused I know I will buckle (plus I have to explain it to DH as he does bedtime now).

Thanks guys.
My husband is running 13.1 miles in the Great North Run in memory of my brother. Please can you help us raise funds for the Cardiomyopathy Association in his memory?
https://www.justgiving.com/RichardDahler/