Frequent wake ups at bedtime and EW problem.....again.

[Britterbug84]

My 6.5 month DD and I have been struggling with EW's for the past couple weeks and it isn't getting better. I have tried letting her stay up until her normal bed time, 8:30 (per DH's insistence that it would fix everything), and I have tried adjusting her day so that she goes to bed earlier than 12 hrs (which was a disaster). She is only waking about 1-1.25 hrs early, but it is too early for me!

Also, just recently in the past 4 or 5 days, she has started waking every 5-10 minutes AFTER we put her to sleep for bedtime. She has NEVER had a problem going to sleep and staying that way when it is bed time. She knows it is bed time and sleeps. We do her usual routine, and then put her in her crib drowsy but awake. Lately though, she has been falling asleep as we are swaddling her with no protests at all. Then usually 10 minutes after she is in bed she cries. I have stood in her room watching, and it seems to be her turning her head back and forth that is waking her. She goes to sleep with her pacifier, but I have put her BACK to sleep without and she still wakes 5 minutes later. This has been lasting longer and longer each night. The first night it was just once, the next was twice, and on and on until last night when it lasted for an hour. She isn't usually fully awake for these, her eyes stay closed most of the time, but if we leave her for a few minutes (to see if she goes back to sleep) she gets hysterical and wakes fully. - I am more concerned about this problem than I am about the EW! I am getting used to the early hour, but I don't want her getting up that early if she is up fighting bed time until 9:30!

We recently have been extending the A times right before her cat nap and right before bed. It has only been by 10 minutes though so far.....sometimes 15 before bed. Here was our schedule yesterday:

wake 6:50 - I put her back to sleep
Woke for the day - 7:15
E - 8:15
A - 8:25
S - 10:02
Woke by herself - 11:15 (goal was 11:30)
E - 12:20
A - 12:35
S - 2:05 (I was shooting for 1:55, but she was fighting like crazy then finally went to sleep after some teething gel)
Woke by herself - 3:25
E - 4:30
A - 4:45
S - 5:55
Woke her up - 6:25
E - 7:30
A - 7:40
S - 8:15 - This is when the war started. She was up every 5-10 minutes until 9:25!
DF - 11:00

E - 4:15
S - 4:50 - She ate FOREVER!!

Woke at 6:45, went back to sleep with the pacifier, eyes never opened.
Woke again at 7:00 wide awake so I didn't try to put her back to sleep.

She is super cranky this morning because it was such a short night. Her little cheeks are also red and chapped looking from sweeping her head from side to side (she is a tummy sleeper).

Tonight, she will be going to bed at 8:00 at the latest! DH finally agreed that maybe his way wasn't working as well as he thought it would. Any other suggestions of what could be causing this? She has been teething for a couple months, but is no where near getting a tooth. Teething gel and tablets sometimes work, but not usually. She also has reflux, and has just had her medicine upped and has been doing wonderfully!

[Yazzie]

Hey there sweetie, sorry you're having such a hard time & totally understand about EWs, they're so tough..!

Could she maybe need an extension of her A times, her naps seems to be a little UT, so now you're doing almost 2.45, maybe extend to 3 hrs & see..?!

We sometimes have those odd wakings that range from every 10~15 mins after being put down to 45 mins later & they were fixed by first increasing A times & second ensuring ds got enough action during his A times.

[Britterbug84]

We were playing with extending her A times last week and shortened the cat nap. I don't know if it was the cause but almost immediately her naps started to fall apart, she started having a really fussy A time right before bed, and a really long NW. I am willing to try it again though!

If I start to try extending her A times, should I extend one all the way to 3 hrs (gradually of course) and then start on the next one? Or should I extend one 5 minutes and then extend the next one by 5 minutes a few days later? I know we are on the verge of dropping the cat nap, but I know she isn't ready to be without it totally yet.

[~inbalance~]

TBH, the first thing that comes to mind for me is OT.  Generally, at least with my LO, resistence to go down for naps or at bedtime, and waking often after bedtime and having a hard time settling are classic OT signs. 

I do remember that age being a tricky one for trying to figure out naps and such.  At the time, I actually found a slightly shorter morning A gave me the best am nap, and then his following A could be a bit longer.  We were doing 2.5hrs A in the morning and 3hrs afterwards, and getting good naps for awhile that way.  It was around 7mos that we dropped the catnap.

The first nap you are only getting 1hr 15mins or so which I think might be OT, which I think is leading to more OT as the day goes on.  You could try shortening the first A time just a little bit to try and get a better nap, and then work from there.  Aim to have her up from her CN earlier so that bedtime could be earlier too.  I would try to have her up by 6 and the make bedtime no later than 7:30 if not earlier.  Remember that the CN is very short, so the A time before bed will need to be short too.  If you are working towards dropping the CN in the next little while, you'll want to get the first two naps sorted and bedtime will need to be much earlier than 8pm.

Your bedtime might be a little too late at the moment, I think that is why you are getting bedtime resistence and wakings.

Also, I do suspect teething might be playing into it as well.  Those teeth can be buggers even before you can see them!!  You could always try giving meds (tylenol or motrin) 30mins before bed and seeing if it helps. 

Sorry if I gave conflicting advice!  I'm not meaning to step on anyones toes, it's just the feeling I get based on how my LO was at that age too.  Of course they're all so different that it's hard to say what will work!!  I think if you can nail that first A time and nap, then the rest of the day will be easier to sort. 

[Britterbug84]

well, after going to bed at 8 sharp today, she woke up once ten minutes after going to bed. She had a rough day today though.

Woke - 7:00
E - 8:00
A - 8:15
S - 9:40
Woke her up at 11:00 - I had somewhere to go. If I am going to be around should I let her sleep for the 1.5 hrs if she will?
E - 12:00
A - 12:20 - she was VERY cranky and upset from 12:00 on.
S - 1:30
Woke her up at 3:00
E - 4:15
A - 4:35 - was much happier this time
S - 5:25 - I tried to put her down at 5:15 and she fought it like crazy!
Woke her at 5:55
E - 7:15
A - 7:30
S - 7:55

If her bed time is still too late, how do I shorten the day and still get enough sleep and awake time? Today I totally agree that she was OT. Hopefully tonight isn't too rough.

[~inbalance~]

Absolutely let her sleep until 1.5hrs or even longer in the morning.  At this time I think you'd still be aiming for both am and pm naps to be 1.5-2hrs, plus the CN, so I do think she is falling short on sleep throughout the day.

What if you tried something like this:
7 wake
9:30 nap 1.5-2hrs if she'll sleep that long
2 nap 1.5-2hrs again
5:30 catnap, 30mins
7:30 bed

Of course it's so much easier when you put it on paper, and you'll have probably have to play around with A times because at this age 15mins can make at the difference.  But since it seems like she is OT at the moment (and possibly teething too which can make them more tired), you'll want to err on the side of shorter A times and then work out from there. 

[Yazzie]

Hi..

Glad Martina stepped in & sorry I haven't been able to actually sit down & get online all day..!

Just as you guys worked things out she does seem OT, but maybe it's several UT naps ending up in OT?...what temperament is you lo?...I'm guessing there's some touchy there am I right?

I hope you have a good night tonight & try out Martina's plan tomorrow & see what happens, I'd also suggest to trim 10~15 mins from the next A time if you get a UT nap (anywhere between 50mins~1.20hrs) & possibly 30 mins if you get an OT nap (30~35mins). Don't worry if you start getting real resistance to the catnap, in which case you'd want to move bed time back to about 30mins~1hr, depending on how your day is going..!

Hang in there, it's a tough phase, but you'll get there...

[~inbalance~]

UT leading to OT is always a possibility!  It used to happen to us all the time.    Am nap would be short because he was UT, then subsequent naps short because they were OT.  So frustrating!  That's why I always thought, if I could figure out what he needs in the morning to make it work, then the rest of the day would (usually) go smoothly!!

Some things that helped me figure out if I was dealing the UT or OT:
40/45min nap (UT) vs 30min nap (OT)
waking up happy vs waking up cranky
babbling and playing before sleep (UT) vs resistence to going down for sleep, i.e. fussing or crying (OT)

Especially at this age too I found sleepy cues to be unreliable.  DS might yawn or rub his eyes if he was bored, but I might mistake it for tiredness and put him down only to get an UT nap.

And one last thing I had to take into consideration at that time too was overstimulation.  It's a hard age, because it's difficult to keep them entertained sometimes, and often things like tv, music, and flashy toys can cause OS which also makes it hard for them to sleep properly.

Don't worry, luckily lots of these things gets simplier over time (and the new issues take over! lol) 

Hopefully by trying to sort out your days a bit we can make the nights go smoother and eliminate the EWs. 

[Yazzie]

Can I add to what Martina just said..?...great point about watching out for OS, actually @ this stage, I tried to keep the last 15~20 mins really low key & that didn't include nappy change, things like walking slowly through the house, looking out the window, looking @ painting on the wall, that sort of stuff, it would keep him up longer, but he's be in a relaxed state, kwim?

[Britterbug84]

Kaylee is mostly textbook with a little spirited and touchy mixed in. She is usually really really good, but this 6 month mark has really messed her up.

Today was a bit frustrating and confusing. See for yourselves:

7:45 - woke after a pretty good night - I have NO idea what made her sleep in...nothing was different during the night.
10:32 - 1st nap - I tried to get her down by 10:15, but she freaked out and refused to even be set down in her crib, let alone go to sleep. She was crying like she still wanted to play.
12:15 - woke - is this a good enough nap???
3:01 – 2nd nap – again, I tried to put her down after 2.5 hrs and she fought until 2 hrs 45 minutes. I decided  that if she slept until 5:00 I would drop the cat nap and put her down for the night between 7:30 and 7:45.
4:10 – woke
By this point, I was just trying to salvage the day.
6:15 – sleep – I was shooting for 6:00
6:36 – woke (I woke her, shortening her cat nap to keep the day from getting too long)
8:35 – Sleep for the night

I really think she needs more than 2.5 hrs for her first A time. I am going to give her 2 hr 40 min tomorrow and see if we still get a good nap. She was not super cranky at all during the day, and when she would get upset, it was more like she just wanted to be held or wanted extra attention. The second A time, I usually try to keep it a little shorter than the first….but that didn’t work out today. I do think she was OT for that second nap.

I always give her about 20 minutes of quiet time before each nap, and keep the last A time quiet the whole way through. I hadn’t thought about OS though, so I will have to see if giving her even more quiet time before naps helps her. Or maybe I will give her some quiet time in the middle of the A time too. How does that sounds?

She didn’t wake up after she was put down for the night, so I am hoping we are past that, at least for now. I think keeping the last A time to no more than 2 hrs is key.

[Yazzie]

You do need to up that A time to 2.40 & hopefully that will start doing the trick, so give it a try & let us know how things go..

[~inbalance~]

I do agree the first A can be a bit longer.  That first nap was not bad though at 1hr 45mins.  I would almost be inclined to think she was initially UT when you put her down for her 2nd nap, which turned into OT when it took her longer to settle.  You can certainly try a longer A in the am, and if you get a similar nap try a longer A time again, maybe 2hrs 40mins.  That second A will very much depend on that first nap.  Overall though I think the day wasn't too bad looking!!  I mean, it ended up a little rocky and I know she was hard to settle for naps, but still I think the first nap was decent which is a large chunk of the battle!

Again, focus on getting the morning A time nailed down and the rest of the day will hopefully go a little smoother.  It does sound like she is waking less after bedtime though?  And at least for yesterday you didn't get an EW?  So those are good things I hope!! 

[Yazzie]

Yikes, mushy mummy brain...!...could u just ignore that post of mine, I clrealy can't do maths..

It looks like she's ok for the first A being 2.45, while the second A of the same duration gave you an UT nap, so maybe extend this one to 3hrs & see how things go?
In fact, while we were doing our transition we'd first extend the 2nd A time keeping the first A time where it was & once we were ok for a couple of days we'd go back to extending the first A, really differs from lo to the other, but could be worth considering.

Am asking as well about your nights, any progress..?

[Britterbug84]

Last night was all over the place.

She didn't wake at all after I put her down for the night at 8:35, but things fell apart when I went in to do the DF. I went in at 11:30 and she drank half an ounce! I put her back in bed, waited until midnight, and tried again. This time she ate almost 3.5 oz (she usually eats almost 6). Then the waking began. She woke every 10 minutes until almost 1am. Then she slept until 4:10. I gave her the pacifier to see if she was actually hungry or if she would go back to sleep. She went back to sleep for an hour and then I fed her at 5:05. She went back to sleep and woke for the day at 7:35. Not too early of an EW, but our goal is 8am.

She was pretty clingy and fussy through the first A time, and when I tried to put her down at 2 hr 40 minutes (even though she didn't seem tired yet) and she fought until 2 hr 50 minutes. She went to sleep at 10:23. UGH!

[~inbalance~]

I do wonder if that is discomfort from teething, especially since she wasn't interested in eating as much.  Have you tried pain meds before?  We've always found ibuprofen to be quite effective.  It's worth a shot, if it helps that great, if not then you know it's not teething (or she has a high tolerance to meds!  )

DS would always get clingy and fussy too when he was teething, so that could be an indication as well.