How early for bedtime when dropping catnap?

[elf]

Thanks - I adore him greatly!  We will get back on track I'm sure.  I remember with DD1 getting into an overtired mess when we did the 2-1 switch.  I pushed her before she was ready and it got really bad but then I put her back to 2 naps and got her caught up on sleep and I think this is what I'll do with DS.  I think I have fallen into the trap of thinking that if I cut his day sleep a bit he will STTN but maybe that is not the case at all...  Anyway, he's taking a good nap at the mo and today is another day to try and get it right!  Off to have another coffee!!!

[~inbalance~]

I did the same thing with DS and the 2-1 too, pushed him too early then hit disaster and had to go back to 2 naps and do some damage control for awhile before slowly moving forward again.  Won't be making that mistake again! 

Both of your LOs a lot like mine was.  Are you BFding or bottle feeding?  I BF and we had 2 night feeds forever it seems.  Starting at 6-7mos I kept saying that I was going to drop the night feeds, and never really had the guts to do it.  But you know, I do think to an extent that they will drop them when they're ready.  For us it was finally around 9/10mos, but he did it on his own and one day just started STTN!  So we can do as much as we can to help them along, but really they will STTN when they feel mature enough to do so.

[elf]

Yes, I am breastfeeding him.  But aI also breastfed  my DD and she slept through very early!  Nevermind, I think it's boy thing - he he he...  I keep saying I'm going to work on dropping one feed but I cave after about 5 mins at 4am because he does seem hungry.  It's so hard to know if it's just comfort though...

[~inbalance~]

Oh, I know it was comfort for DS much longer than it was hunger!    It was still so much easier to feed him that one or two times, I was weak. 

Lucky that your DD STTN much earlier!  TBH, I think it's normal for BF babies to take longer to STTN in general, but obviously they are all different and will do it when they're ready.    I plan on BFding this next one too, and here's hoping he STTN earlier than DS did!!

Hope you have a good night tonight

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

I just dropped night feeds for my big BF boy who loves to hang out on the booby all night!  It was bad for a night or 2 but wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. I actually found that when I didn't feed him but watched and sat with/shh-patted him that I could tell that he wasn't doing a hunger cry.  It was more like cries and whines of "I don't know how to go back to sleep without nursing, Mom...."  We're not STTN yet but I have faith it'll be soon.  *Fingers crossed!* 

[elf]

Nap 1 today went from 8.50am - 10.35am (1.45 mins).  I have put him down at the 2.5 hour mark as although last night had 4 NW's it's not like he was up for long anyway as I was very naughty and fed him!  Never usually have to do that so I am hoping that as a one off it will be fine and like I said get back on track today.  If his second nap goes for 1.5 hours and ends at 2.30pm then I will do a catnap.  However...  because his body is used to 2.5 hours activity it is highly likely that he won't actually be tired til around 5pm.  This catnap will be in the sling so APOP and usually all I have to do is walk around with him and stroke his forehead but like I said, part of this whole mess we are in is because he is alomst dropping it.  So I'm thinking I could try it at 5pm and do 1 of 2 things...

1 - Nap from 5pm - 5.15pm (15 mins and bedtime at 7pm)
2 - Nap from 5pm - 5.30pm and bedtime at 7.30pm...

Any advice based on what he has done today.  The other thought I had was until he is actually ready to drop this catnap, am I better to give him a full 45 mins and move bedtme til 8pm and have a shorter night but hopefully without all the NW's as he won't be overtired.  Obviously I expect to feed him once in the night (am hoping it will only be once tonight).  Does anyone have any experience in keeping the catnap but making the night shorter until he can go longer activity and then bring bedtime back to 7pm...  I think this is what I ended up doing with DD1 during the 2-1 transition.  I realised that she actually functioned better on the two naps and a shorter night until her body could actually do the required activity time for one nap and then we went back to a longer night.  I don't remember this 3-2 transition being so difficult with her but I think because she STTN very early this transition wasn't too difficult for her as she had 12 hour nights by 4 months so could possibly cope with the change better than DS can who isn't doing 12 hour nights...  I am actually also wondering if he would do better on a routine that was only had 10 hour night sleep anyway and the 3 naps.  About a month ago I wanted to keep him up later at night as my parents were arriving from overseas so I did the catnap from 5pm - 5.45pm and put him to bed at 8pm.  I remember he went down beautifully and woke around 2am to feed and then was up at 6am to start the day and I remember thinking at the time that maybe I should do that sort of a routine.  Do you think it matters as to where they get their sleep.  In other words, is a 10 night sleep bad if there are 2 great naps and a good catnap?  It would be the same amount of sleep in the 24 hour period.  What I dont't want to do is try the catnap too early and then have him fight it and then lose the opportunity to even have it...

[elf]

PS - Have any of the moderators been through this before?  Now that I've just typed my idea about a shorter night I'm thinking that could be the way to go... but would hate a 5pm nap to mess up with night sleep.  I guess I take the risk of undertired vs overtired!!!  Hmmm... gets tricky

[~inbalance~]

Hi!  I want to take a closer look at your last two posts but don't have the time to sit and read it properly at the moment!  I'm going to try and remember later on today, but remind me again if you don't hear from me or if other moms don't jump in!! 

[~inbalance~]

Hmmm....that is a very good question!!  TBH, I don't have much experience with shortner nights working in our favor, so I'm not quite sure what to say!  I've no doubt that some mommies have taken that route and have found that it works, afterall it is so individual, but it is not a route I would have ever taken intentionallly.

But I think I see where you are coming from.  I remember once with my DS it happened we were at the ILs for dinner and got back late.  He had a late CN in the car on the way home and when we got home I put him in to bed fairly quickly, he went down like a dream, slept a long stretch that night and I think only woke once.

What I learned from that experience is it's not so much a shorter night that's better for him, rather it was having his last nap end fairly close to bedtime, therefore having a short A time before bed.  And this rule has almost alway held true.  When he is unable to handle the proper A times until bed, and when he is OT, his nights are ALWAYS better with his last A time being shorter. 

So, in a sense you are probably onto something.  I think you are right thinking that if he can't handle a long A to bed WITHOUT having a catnap, then slotting in the catnap and doing a later bedtime would be the way until he is ready to drop it.

And as with all transitions you could alternate 2 and 3 nap days - when he takes 2 good naps and is well rested, skip the CN and go for an early bedtime, and on days where the CN is necessary, do a later bedtime. 

[elf]

Thanks Martina...  We ll last night was just as bad despite the catnap.  In fact, the same 4 NW's happened at almost the exact same time as the night before.  I am going to post on the NW board.  We haven't had bad nights like this before so I'm starting to think it has nothing to do with the catnap at all and in fact could be solids bothering him, perhaps the swaddle is annoying  him (although i don't know how he would go without it?) or maybe he is teething...  He is asleep now for his 1st nap so i will let you know how we go today.  I have decided that if he does 2 really good naps today then I will shoot for bed at 6pm.  Im at a loss as to what is up with him?  It was a real cry.  He wasn't hungry.  I did get him back to sleep quickly which was good.  If only I knew?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Teeth?  Could definitely be solids, too.  That definitely threw us for a loop. Hopefully the NW board can add more thoughts!

Let us know if 2 naps + 6pm bedtime works for you.  We did it again today, fingers crossed it works for us again, too!

[~inbalance~]

yeah, I remember being so frustrated at that time because I could never figure out what the problem was between OT, UT, OS, teeth, solids, developmental stuff....you name it it's happening all at that age!!   

A post on the NWings board is probably a sound idea, at least to get some fresh outlooks.  But please do keep us posted here as we'd love to keep helping and supporting you too!! 

[elf]

kmk512 - When you did the 6pm bedtime, how did your night go?  How many feeds did you do in the night?  I know it sounds crazy but I put him down this morning after 2.45mins activity.  He went off beautifully and is in the middle of what would appear to be a good long nap.  If he sleeps til 11am (he went down at 9am) do you think I should wake him or just let him sleep.  I think it is unlikely that he would sleep longer than 2.15mins but I'm thinking that if he can handle 2.45 mins activity and then does a great nap then I will be able to do another good activity and hopefully another long nap which would push everything closer to bedtime.  His pattern in the past has definitely been, give a bit more activity if naps become shorter and I would honestly say he did not get to that nice tired stage til the 2.45min mark.  He has also been crying a bit when I put him to sleep the past two days at the 2.30 mins mark and the naps were shorter - 1.20 mins  and 1 hour which is why I got the catnap in yesterday.  He is definitely capable of 2 hour naps as that used to be his pattern.  Also, I would say yesterday he was in fact under tired to begin with as I had to stroke his forehead a bit and encourage his eyes to close for his naps which I don't have to do. And the were all less than 1.5 hours hours.  Maybe he all of a sudden can cope with the extra activity but I've been too scared to 'push him' for fear of overtiredness but in not doing so am creating undertired naps which lead to an overtired bedtime??  Oh, this is all too confusing - ha ha!  I'm really hoping that we can do 2 long naps and no catnap tonight.  Thanks Martina...  I will keep you both posted.  I posted on the NW board.  I am wondering if he is going to bed with a sore tummy.  The more I think about the NW and the crying I think he is in pain.  He doesn't want the food in the night.  I know he genuinely wanted one of the  feeds but I KNOW the others were not needed.  In fact 2 quick breastfeeds feels like heaven after the past 2 nights!

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

It is confusing, I know!  Tweaking is really tough until you find the right routine and then it becomes a lot easier to make small changes.  We'll get you there! 

2h45m seems to be the right A time around here at the moment and has been for the past couple of weeks.  If he took a good nap after that A time, I'd say that's probably right on for him as well. 

I generally do not wake from naps, other than the CN.  But my LO doesn't tend to do the whole 'too much daytime sleep' thing.  I'd say if he goes to 2h15 that's probably fine.  I find waking him ends up making him mad and cranky anyhow!

If this is a good nap I would go for 2h45 A time again, definitely sounds like he can handle it and that you were getting UT naps when you did 2h30.  If you're worried about OT you could go to 2h35 or 2h40 and see. 

Being UT and not getting enough A time in the day could definitely lead to your NW issues....

Hoping you don't need a CN today!

It's still night over here but I'll keep you posted on how our 6pm bedtime goes tomorrow morning!

[elf]

Thanks so much!  He just woke up at 11.10am.  I think he fell asleep at 8.55am so a 2.15 min nap.  I'm going to put him down at the 2.45 min mark again which means Nap 2 will be at around 1.55pm and will cross fingers for another good nap.  I think I will have to play it by ear for bedtime.  If he sleeps for 2 hours and wakes at 4pm then I think I will have bedtime at 6.30pm or 6.45pm?  I will have to make that call later I guess.  I'm thrilled for the good nap.  Like I said, I don't know what the problem has been but maybe it''s being stuck on an old routine.  Your help is much appreciated.  His wake up time this morning was 6.15am so I don't know if I should aim for a 12 hour day/12.5 hour day or keep bedtime closer to 6.30 7pm which has always been the norm.  Maybe I should just put him down for bed 2.45mins after Nap 2?  Thanks again   Hope you get a good night and a decent wake up!