19 week old - NW every three hours - help

[goldtooth]

our LO is 19 weeks old.  he is 18 pounds, 27 inches = very big.  he is on 4 hours EASY, and eats between 5 and 10 oz at every feed.  this week he has begun sleeping well at nap time (amen).  now that the day sleep appears to be on it's way to predictable and longer than 45 minutes, it is time to address night sleep issues which we have put on the back burner waiting for daytime naps to improve.

our LO typically goes to bed around 630, and we would DF at 1030. after that four hour stretch, he would wake regularly every 3 hours and take a good feed.  slowly the 2am feed would get less and less, so we started feeding less and less at the 2am feed, and at 16 weeks we had two nights in a row of sleep from midnight to 6am, and though we were on our way to sleeping through the night.

then illness and teething hit. and an ear infection.  all routines were off track.  now that he is feeling better, we are dealing with waking every three hours.  also, he is now waking up for his DF, and he's waking earlier and earlier.  a few weeks ago, we did the DF and he would not wake.  then he started waking for it, earlier and earlier.  tonight he went down at 630 and woke at 9pm!  i was planning to DF at 10, but he beat me to it. 

last night he went down at 630, woke at 1015 ate 7oz.  he woke again at 1215am, hands out of swaddle.  instead of feeding, i swaddled and S/P him back to sleep (30 minutes).  he woke again at 3, and ate 10 oz!  woke again at 5, S/P back to sleep.  and woke again at 6:45, only ate 1 oz, and would not eat again until 745am. 

any suggestions on how to extend our night sleep?  he seems to be hungry in the middle of the night...is it just because he is a very big baby? or is the food a prop?  or should he be able to go longer?

thanks in advance

[~Sara~]

Hi there!

Since he's almost 5 months old...do you think it might be good to get rid of the swaddle?  Perhaps he's waking up because his hands are out, and by you going in and reswaddling him, he's not learned to resettle himself. 

Also, when he wakes up at night, do you immediately go in to him, or do you hang back and only intervene when he's crying an "I need you cry!"?  If you have been going in at the first sound he makes, that might also be preventing him from resettling on his own.

The thing is, some LOs often toss and turn at night, sometimes they cry out; but with the right guidance, they will put themselves back to sleep.  So, I'm only asking those questions to make sure that if he's just waking, that we can get him in a good spot to learn how to get himself back off to slumberland

Now, with the waking at the DF...have you tried wake to sleep to get rid of the waking?  Here's a link describing how to do it (it's the 2nd technique described):
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

At night, however, you do w2s about 1h before they wake up (instead of the 10 minutes like with naps).

Re: him eating at night...does this throw off his appetite for his first AM bottle?

Lastly, could you post his routine?  Let's see if anything pops out from that

[sherrydl]

I'm having similar problems with my LO who is 17 weeks so I'm posting to follow along. I had one question, my LO has been getting terrible sleep as a result of all the NWs and poor naps. Do I still follow the sleep rules (e.g., only pick up for real cries, etc.) even though he's going to get even less sleep? Or do I just try to get him some sleep and then follow the rules once he's better rested?

[goldtooth]

Hi Sara:  thanks for your help!

We considered getting rid of the swaddle;however, we know he sleeps so soundly when he's nice and tight.  i'm happy to report that our naps have greatly improved now that he is in his crib, and YES we were rushing it at the first noises.  i realized that, and stopped using the monitor for naps.  naps went from 45 minutes to 1.5 hours, IF he stays swaddled.  if the hands escape, then we have to go in, reswaddle, and get him back to sleep. when those hands get anywhere close to his mouth, it seems to wake him, not soothe him.  for example, as i type this, he woke after 1 hour - i left him for about a minute until i heard the ' i need you cry', went in, and his hands were out of the swaddle.  i reswaddled, and he was able to put himself back to sleep.

at night, he is still sleeping in our room in a bassinet.  his cries/screams are very loud, and we are concerned about waking our daughter at night.  until he can make it through on his own, we are reluctant to have him sleep in his own room at night.  this means that when he wakes at night, we have definitely been rushing and picking him up, and feeding right away (mostly for fear of waking the rest of the house).  i think you're right - we should see if he can resettle on his own. 

about a month ago, we noticed at the 2am feed he was eating very little, so we began reducing the amount in the bottle with the hopes of eliminating it.  we were successful for two nights, and then he got the croup.  however, since he's been sick, he's back to waking every three hours at night, and he takes a full feed at 2am, after a full DF.  the subsequent 5am feed is about a half feed, and yes, it effects the first morning bottle, as it did this morning.  i was successful getting him  back to sleep this morning from 6 to 7, but he did not eat more than 2 oz at 730.

the DF seems to be back on track - last night he went to bed at 640 and we did the DF at 1030.  however, he woke at 140 and took a full feed. 

i should also add that since he's been sick, we have transitioned from a 4 hour EASY back to a 3.5 or 3.75 EASY.

here is our current EASY: (which still fluctuates from day to day)

645 or 7am  wake/dress
E : 730   typically 4 oz
A: 845 or 9    1.25-1.5 hours  (1 hour play, 15-20 min wind-down, swaddle put in crib awake.  often DH tries to feed again to get a few more oz in his belly)
S: 9-1030 or 11
E: 1030 or 11:  6-8 oz
A: 12/1230
S: 1230-2 or 230
E: 230  5-7 oz
A: 3
S: 345-445/5pm  (sometimes the afternoon nap is longer, in which case this is a 45 catnap)
E: 2oz  (he typically will not eat more than 2oz at this time....we have to feed again right before bedtime, which we know is not ideal)
A: 5-6, bath,
S: 6/630 Bedtime + more food (4 oz)
DF: 1030
E: 130 or 2am  - 7 or 8 oz
E: 430 or 5am - 2-4 oz  (if he wakes later than 5, say around 545, he is often up for the day)
wake 645 or 7

thanks in advance!

[goldtooth]

forgot to mention - LO is currently teething (three at once).  this contributes to hands getting out of the swaddle - he wants to chew on his fingers.

[~Sara~]

I think it's worth it to start cutting back on that MOTN feeding since it's affecting his morning bottle.  When this kind of thing happens, his calories are shifted towards the night, and we want to consolidate them during the daytime plus the DF--if possible.

A note about feeding before bedtime--it's okay to do that.  In "The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems," Tracy herself says that she makes an exception of feeding at bedtime.  As long as you're not feeding him to sleep (meaning that you read to him, sing a lullaby, have a wind down routine afterward, etc.) you're okay   We give DS a bottle 25 minutes before bedtime, read some stories, and then put him down awake.  Works great for him bc the bottle helps him to wind down after the bath.

So, if it works better for his routine to not feed right after the catnap and just feed at bedtime, I would suggest doing that.  If you do it that way, he's still getting 6 bottles a day...and then once you drop that MOTN feed, he's back to the regular 5 bottles a day.

He's actually eating a lot during the night.  Unless he's going through his 6 month GS early, I don't think he needs to be eating twice in the night.  I would again suggest to not feed him to just get him to go back to sleep if he cries.  It'll only throw off his appetite more during the day, and will perpetuate that issue.

Related to the NWs...teething can wreak havoc with even the most textbook of routines.  Have you tried giving him pain meds before sleeping--especially at night--to see if that helps him?  If not, I'd try it out for a couple of days and see how that works.

I still think that if he's waking up from sleep only because he got his hands out of the swaddle, it might be time to wean it.  We noticed that with DS--we were reswaddling him 3-4 times a night.  It was getting ridiculous.  Took 2-3 rough days to wean him (did it cold turkey), but it was worth it.  Just an idea.

[goldtooth]

thanks!  we decided to start weaning the swaddle - we're with you.  it's gotten ridiculous.  so far this week we're napping and sleeping with one hand out, and will go to both hands out with a sleep sack in a few days, since it seems he's getting the hang of it.

the teeth have come through, so the pain seems to be less, although it hasn't diminished his desire to constantly bite on his fingers.  orajel has been very helpful to get him to relax enough to fall asleep.  it seems to wear off quickly, but once asleep he seems to do fine.

we are in absolute agreement that the MOTN feedings were seriously impacting the day feeds.  two nights ago i was able to get him back to sleep without a bottle at night (small victory), and when he woke at 645am he drained the whole bottle.  which is something he hasn't done for a very long time.  last night, after an hour of trying to get him back to sleep, i gave in and gave him 4 ounces at 330am.  he cried when the bottle was empty, so i knew he wanted more, but i plan to cut it from 4oz to 3oz to 2oz then none over the next couple of nights.  i may have to do WTS at 230 to avoid him waking for food, which will be soooo hard because i'm sooooo tired, but i know it will be worth it.

thanks for reminding me about the bottle before bedtime.  it definitely helps get him in the mood for sleep, and since we're not in the habit of giving a bottle before naps, i guess we're not messing anything up.

thanks so much for your insights.   every night i tell him "tonight's the night, buddy!".    maybe tonight will be the night....fingers crossed.

[Dela]

I just came on here to post almost exactly the same scenario!

Darcey's doing all the same things after being ill and I'm just not sure whether to go to her or to persevere with getting her back down. She isn't swaddled nor does she have a pacifier but is still waking 2-3 times per night.
She hasn't ever been fed to sleep and takes a big feed each time. We have tried SP and PUPD to get her back to sleep but this can take over an hour each time and then she wakes crying again after about 10 minutes.

Can you let me know if I should start a new thread on this or if I can add to this one?

[~Sara~]

goldtooth--I'm happy to hear about your swaddle weaning progress!  Keep it up!  Sounds like you're almost done with the whole thing (it's such an awesome feeling!).

Now that he's older and has more control over his arm and hands, teething aside, he might like the oral stimulation.  Who knows?  Maybe you'll find that he turns into a thumb/finger sucker to self-soothe once the swaddle is gone.

last night, after an hour of trying to get him back to sleep, i gave in and gave him 4 ounces at 330am.

At that age, if LO has been up that long at night and has been crying, that usually makes them hungry; so you did what you had to do, and like you said, there's always the next night

A note about w2s: if your LO is really hungry at that time, they'll still wake up.

Remind me, is your LO formula fed or fed expressed breastmilk?

Dela--so that more eyes can see your situation, I recommend starting your own thread.  Plus, it will keep your advice separate from goldtooth's.

[goldtooth]

ok - happy to report we are now officially swaddle free.  hooray!

quick question about night sleep:

when we DF at 10, LO wakes every three hours subsequently.  (1245 345 645)

this week, we decided not to do the DF.  now LO goes to bed at 6 or 630, wakes sometime between 1230 and 230 and takes a full feed.  wakes again abour 545 am (i was able to get him to eat and back to sleep, but DH was not successful).

thoughts?

thanks in advance!

[~Sara~]

Sometimes the DF can happen in a "bad" spot of their sleep cycle; you could try moving the DF to 9:45 or back to 10:30 to see if that makes a difference.  If you notice that he's sleeping better without the DF at all, then you can wean it (I don't recommend doing cold turkey).

Congrats on the swaddle weaning!!  Well done!

[goldtooth]

i think we're going to try a few weeks without the DF and see what happens.  two nights ago, he woke at 945p, took a full feed, and woke again at 345a for another 10 oz.  last night, he only got up once, at 3am for a full 10oz bottle.  he was up at 645a (but didn't eat much at the 7am feed, which is understandable).   we've started on cereal, and will be moving to baby foods maybe next week.  with any luck we can tank him up on enough food and forumula during the day that he'll stop waking from hunger. did i mention he weighs 21 pounds at 5 months? once we're convinced he's just GOT to be full, we'll start to reduce the available ounces in the 3am bottle, and eventually use Pu/PD to get him back to sleep. 

fingers crossed by six months?.....

[~Sara~]

That sounds like an okay plan to me...just be aware that there is a growth spurt at 6 months so if he suddenly seems voracious around then, that might be why

Good luck!

[goldtooth]

so it's been a few weeks - been trying to be patient with our LO and see how the routine shakes out. 

we have stopped the DF; which has stopped the waking every 3 hours at night.   However, he wakes up randomly around 1-3am for a full feed.  then he's up at 5 or 6am for the day, and ofcourse is not ready for a full bottle.  first feed is pushed to 7am, and the whole EASY gets a little off kilter; something more like AEASY.  we did start him on baby food two weeks ago.  so he gets bottle plus cereal/fruit or vegi.

so, what's more important - preserving the 4 hour time between feeds, or sticking to the order of EASY?

he is also teething at the moment, which has naps off kilter, as well as the amount of food he takes in, depending on how much his mouth hurts.  hands have become an issue again because he wants to bite on his fingers, which sabotages the naps as well.

it's always something. 

any thoughts on the night time routine?  i was thinking of slowly reducing the amount in the bottle in the middle of the night over the next week.  we have trouble not feeding him when he wakes, because it is clearly a hungry cry, and if we let him cry (while we console him) (he does not respond well to PU/PD) it wakes his sister in the next room.

thanks in advance.

[~Sara~]

Hi there!  Sorry it's been a while.  I'm glad dropping the DF stopped the bulk of the NWs.  Since you don't do a DF anymore, it could be that he needs a bit more during the night to get him through.  Just like you suggested, what I would do is maybe start reducing the amount you give him during the night, that way his appetite is bigger for the first AM bottle and you're shifting his caloric intake more to the daytime hours.

He's about 6.5 mo now, right?  Could you post his EAS routine for yesterday or today?  Just in case we can glean something from that

so, what's more important - preserving the 4 hour time between feeds, or sticking to the order of EASY?

It really just depends on the situation, as every LO is different.  You don't want LO to become a snacker, but you also don't want to get too off-track.  If I were you, I'd feed him whatever he'll eat when he wakes up, then feed after his nap, and then you should be able to go back to his usual 4h eating pattern.

Just a thought about the 5-6 am wake up time...has he woken up this early normally?  Or is this a new development?

And then, to add teething on top of all of this--or maybe it's all due to teething...it's brutal; I understand.  *hugs*  Have you tried any pain meds to see if that helps with his naps so that he's not OT?