4hr transition question - confused!!!!

[sherrydl]

Hi. Congrats karendbrooks on things going so well. I was reading your post and had a question for Helen. My DS is 17 weeks and we've been working on the 3 to 4 hr transition and napping and NW are still major problems. My LO is currently addicted to falling asleep on my shoulder. NW are terrible he's up almost every hour and doesn't go back to sleep on his own. I often end up AP holding him to sleep or nursing him to sleep. For naps he'll usually go to sleep on his own if I have the A time right (which is always a guess right now) but if he wakes early he won't go back to sleep and I have been AP to try to get him back to sleep. I'm usually only getting 30 or 45 min naps and occasionally 1 hr 15 mins.

A few days ago I tried sh/pt him and not letting him fall asleep on me (I try to put him back in the crib before he's completely calm). He ended up being up for 3 hrs and spitting up he got so upset. He eventually fell asleep but only for 30 mins. He can't keep going like that!

Helen- I noticed you mentioned that you should get your LO some sleep while you're working on breaking the paci addiction. I don't have too many options to APOP him as the shoulder thing and nursing him to sleep are the only ones that work consistently (although I never really tried to get him to sleep in the car). After 30 mins of crying I'll take him out of the room and redo the WD and sometimes he will fall asleep. Any thought on how I can get my DS some sleep so he can handle sleep training? Do I just need to continue to be consistent until the habit is broken? I'm worried he's going to get too OT to handle it.

Thanks!

[Adaias mom]

Hi Sherry, Hugs that things are so bad at the moment. What stands out for me is that your DS is falling asleep only on your shoulder because that is the only way he knows how. You have become a prop. You will have to deal with it in much the same way as breaking the paci prop habit.  And unfortunately until you break the habit and he learns how to fall asleep indepently he isn't going to get a good undisturbed nights sleep as everytime he comes into light sleep, he will wake and cry for you as thats the only way he knows how to get back to sleep. If i were you i would start with the first nap of the day. Pick a phrase, mine is 'Its time for sleeps' do your normal wind down routine and place him in his cot. He WILL cry. Unfortunately they are confused and are wondering what to do and this type of prop habit breaking involves crying, its just up to you to keep the situation under control as best you can.  Just sit with him, keep calm and repeat your phrase. For the first few days, stroke his head, touch his chest, do whatever you find soothes him. If he becomes histerical, pick him up for a moment, give him a cuddle, let him calm a bit then put him back down. Its very important you do not let him fall asleep on you or hold him long enough to be completely calm even though the first few times you may find you can't help it. Once he's back in his cot, i guarantee he will scream again. Agaian just pat or stroke his head repeat your phrase, and again if needs be, pick him up. Do this for 45 mins. If he doesn't sleep after 45 mins, take him down stairs, calm him, feed him whatever, then start again for hi next nap. Remember he hasn't slept so will be mega grumpy and tired, so it may be feed him and try again. DO NOT if you can help it feed him to sleep. If second attempt he doesn't sleep, try taking him for a drive in the car or a walk in the pram. I guarantee you will need a break as much as him by this point so get him to sleep by one of those means. Cars are always great If he only sleeps for 30mins its because it took him so long to get to sleep that he was OT, but the main thing is he fell asleep on his own, so treat it as an OT nap and just shorten his next A time.  You will hopefully find that after 3 days, he will fall asleep on his own and will never remember needing you to fall asleep! Then 9 times out of 10 he will only wake at night if hungry, uncomfortable, or in pain from teething! It will take a while for him to sort his naps out but once he can fall asleep indepently you should find that with the right A time he will sleep for longer periods.  Good luck, and remember the key is consistency! If you need some support or some hugs come right on and i'll hand them out to you! Be strong and don't give up! You may find he surprises you!

[karendbrooks]

We have officially begun day 3 of paci freedom.  The nights are going well.  Naps are an adjustment still.  Short napping, but I am told that starts to even out at 4 months.   Funny this post has become a prop post!

Sherry -hang in there sweetie.  Like Adaia's mom said - there will be crying.  bout broke my heart thinking that I was the reason, but then I was reminded that he wasnt crying because of me, it was because he was frustrated with the change.  Hugs to you, and keep us posted.

Adaia's Mom - A 4hr question for ya...  Ian is now sleeping better at night (I think - we turned off the baby monitor because I was "Rescuing."  Now I only hear him at 3:30 when he's hungry and when he gets up)  But he is waking up at 6:30 or so.  How do I start his 4 hour transition when he's waking up so early?  I turn him in the crib so he's under his mobile and let him play until 7 and then we eat.  We have A time until around 8ish or 8:10 and then he's asleep by 8:30.  So technically he's up for 2 hours and then he will eat again around 10:15ish.  His A times are a little inconsistent.  He's waking up at 30 or 40 minutes into a nap, but I am usually able to get him back down after about 10 or 15 minutes. 

I guess my question is, does this sound like I'm on the right track?  His early mornings are throwing my brain off, and since I'm tired, I cant think straight  

[Adaias mom]

Since he is eating at 7, then thats absolutely fine. When they are on 4hourly exclusive bottle feeding its difficult if they short nap, so you just have to play it by ear. Ideally he would feed at 7,11,3 & 7 but if you find he short naps and can't last til next feeding time, you can A. try and give him a catnap before next feed (NEVER worked with me as Adaia would never sleep when even slightly hungry) or b. feed a little bit earlier. Looking at your EASY, you may be a little bit far off geting to the 4hour EASY. If i were you i would stick to 3.5hrs for now, get his naps sorted, then you will probably find the transition will happen naturally. i.e. he will take bigger feeds, and so will be able to last a bit longer. Plus, in order for 4 hour EASY to get anywhere near the textbook your lo will need slightly longer A time, so for now i would stick to 3.5hours, and if you need to do EASAEAS for a bit then so be it. As your bub gets older the EASY looks more like that anyway, don't fret about keeping to a strict EASY.  HTH xxx

[sherrydl]

karendbrooks - sounds like you're making great progress! I'll keep your success in mind as I embark on my own weaning.

Adaia's Mom - I think you're right. I'm the prop. He seems to put himself to sleep quite independently, it’s just waking up and putting himself back to sleep that is the problem. I'm going to start breaking that habit in a few days as he's scheduled for immunization soon and no sense starting just to APOP after his shots. I’m sure I’ll be back for some encouragement! A few questions as I prepare (maybe I should post in the props forum?)

-if he wakes after a 30 or 45 min nap, do I really sh/pt him for 45 mins? In recent memory this has never resulted in him going back to sleep just a lot of crying. Usually I just get him up. Will it get better if I persist at the sh/pt?

-should I also be trying to HTTJ at the 30 and 45 min mark of sleep?

-at night I just keep going until he falls asleep?

-I also have to wean him from his swaddle. I was thinking of just letting his arms out now while everyone’s having bad sleeps and giving him time to adjust (I have a few days to wait until his immunization). Is this a bad idea? Should I wait and tackle one issue at a time when he’s sleeping better and I’ve dealt with me as the prop?

Thanks for all your helpful advice.

[Adaias mom]

Sherry, I actually weaned the swaddle and the paci at the same time, just thought well things can't get any worse so what the hell, but you may want to be a little easier on the little man and get his sleep sorted then wean the swaddle, but that has the risk of it all going haywire again.  As for elongating naps, personally i would shhpat for say 10 - 15mins, if no joy then stop as you are right you won't get the nap extended. You will find that once he can go to sleep alone and you get his A time right then he wil sleep longer naps anyway...but i warn you its a hidden dark art lol   At night time, yes you stick with it until he falls asleep. It will feel like an age in the midst of the night but its so important to be consistent and no give up and feed to sleep as that will just cause confusion. You could try HTTJ, best thing to do is watch him for a few naps, see that time when he wakes and then go in a few mins prior and just hold gently.  But if you haven' got your A time right and he is going to be UT, he will wake anyway as won't be tired enough to sleep longer so will wake after 1 sleep cycle fully charged. Personally i would say deal with one thing at a time. (Or the swaddle and prop together) Get his prop addiction sorted so you know he can sleep on his own, then work on extending naps. Too many changes at once will just confuse the little guy, and also cause you to have so much more to think about. Good luck xx

[karendbrooks]

Just saying hi.  Hope you ladies had a nice weekend. 
Sherry - how are you doing? 
Adaias Mom - thanks for all of your help!

The rest of our weekend went well, but SOO off routine.  Poor kiddo.  We traveled for my dad's birthday, so his naps were in the car (still 40 minutes, the little booger) and then all of the family stuff kept him awake.  We ended up not getting home until 10:00 pm. I put him straight to bed, DF at 11, and then he slept until 4:15!! Bottle, then back to sleep, and he woke up at 7.  Wasnt hungry since he had just eaten, so we are a bit off this morning, but is napping well now.  We're almost at 40 minutes, so I need to go sit sentry by his crib to help him get back to sleep when/if (i'm optimistic) he wakes. 

Have a great day everyone!! 
karen

[Adaias mom]

Hey Karen, so glad things are going well! Its really feels like its all worth it when they sleep. Can your little one have a word with my DD. She is cutting 4 teeth at mo and sleep isn't in her dictionary anymore little lamb!

[karendbrooks]

Poor baby!!  That is hard work.  I will keep you and her in my thoughts.  Not looking forward to the teething days. 

[sherrydl]

Hi ladies
Last night was some kind of miracle. After spending nights with my DS waking sometimes every 20 mins starting at 1 am, he woke up only twice last night!

He had his DF at 9:45, woke at 2 am when I fed him, then he slept again until 5 am. I have no idea how this happened as we had a terrible day yesterday due to some outings and he was very OT. The only thing that seemed different yesterday is that he seemed less interested in eating. I'm wondering if maybe he was going through a GS that has now passed (he had been eating every 2.5-3 hrs and he seemed no hungry at the 3 hr mark yesterday).

I also had no idea what to do with his 5 am wake up. I fed him again as he genuinely seemed hungry (rooting around). He fed for about 10 mins (daytime feeds are about 20-30 mins but he's never seemed to feed for longer than 15 mins at night), then he fell back asleep. But then he woke back up after about 10 mins asleep (very unusual after a feed). I tried changing his diaper and reswaddling him and putting him back to bed. I almost thought he would fall back asleep but no go and I eventually got him up at 6 am (he usual wake time had been 6:20). I didn't know what to have for an A time this morning but I put him down for his first nap at 7:20. He fell asleep no problem but woke after 30 mins. His usual morning A times are about 1 hr 40 mins.

Unfortunately he's going for his vaccinations today so I won't get to tell if it was a fluke or a change. Any thoughts on what it might have been? Also, any suggestions for what to do with the 5 am wake up? It really throws me and I end up doing all kinds of AP that never work.

Thanks!
Sherry

[Adaias mom]

You may find with his night s going alot better and him getting some more solid sleep, his awake times may go wonky for a bit. Post your routine in E A S format, i'll take a look and let you know if i have any suggestions. They change constantly and what may happen one night, may not happen another but as he learns to fall asleep more indepently, your night will improve no end! Good look with the injections. If he is off, don't worry about doing some AP to get him to calm and sleep no point upsetting him if he is feeling groggy.  Hugs xxx

[karendbrooks]

just wanted to do a quick update on Ian.  Naps are now seamless!!  He's not waking up at 40 minutes anymore, so he has more or less put himself on 3.5-3.75hr EASY.  Whew. 

How are you doing Sherry? 

Adaiasmom - Thanks so much for all of the support and help!!  I really appreciate it! 

[sherrydl]

Hi Karen. That's great to hear about Ian. You must be pleased! Adaiasmom thanks for the heads up, his A times were indeed all over the place today. I couldn't figure it out! We’re also getting messed up due to outside activities.

Here was our EASY from yesterday:
Awake: awake at 5am, fed at 5:25, woke up 5:45, out of crib at 6:15
E: 6:20
A: 2 hrs
S: 7:40-8:40

E: 9:20
A: 2 hr 20 mins (was aiming for 1 hr 50 mins but didn’t nap before had to leave for play group)
S: 11-11:25 (in car)

E: 12:30
A: 3 hrs (due to play group)
S: 2:25-2:50 (had to do the WD 3 times; the first time I aimed for 1 hr 40 mins)

E: 3:55
A: 1 hr 40 mins
S: 4:25-5:15 (woke him up)

E: 6:00
Bed: 6:35
DF: 9:45 (he had been waking up at 9 pm for his DF but he was still sleeping at this time)

Here's our EASY from today:

awake: woke at 5, nursed to sleep, woke back up at 5:40, out of crib at 6
E: 6:20
A: 1 hr 45 mins (had no idea what his real wake time was)
S: 7:25 -7:55

E: 9:00
A: 2 hr 40 mins (I aimed for 1 hr 40 but had to do 2 WD to get him to sleep)
S: 11:30-11:45 (this was a complete shock as usually this A time would result in a 30 min nap)

E: 12:15
A: 2 hr 45 mins (at the doctors for vaccinations, he took these like a champ!)
S: 2:30-3:00 (in the car)

E: 3:25
A: 2 hrs 25 mins (I aimed for 1 hr 40 but it took 2 WDs and APOP to get him to sleep, this could have been the accumulated OT or the shots)
S: 5:25-6:10 (he woke up)

E: 6:30
A: 1 hr 10 mins
Bed: 7:20

Any suggestions on A times or the 5 am wake up would be greatly appreciated. I’m not going to expect too much from him tonight because of his shots but tomorrow I’m gearing up to wean from shoulder sleeping! I will continue to remind myself that it couldn’t get worse than what it was.

Thanks for the support and advice!
Sherry.

[Adaias mom]

Hey there Sherry and Hugs...seems like the little fella is a bit all over the place at the moment. I know that outings really do mess things up, do you possibly have a few days where you can stay in and try and get him off this OT train and into some sort of nap routine (even though routine is soooo the wrong word as they never do the same thing twice) but just be able to follow him without distractionsand see if you can pin point his sort of OK A time. At the moment, he is on the OT train, and so i would say that A times will be drastically reduced, so for the next day i would look at reducing your A times to about 1.5hrs to see if you can get a decent nap time out of him. Also if he is consistently doing 25 - 30min naps they are deflinatelt OT naps, so you need to be getting him down into bed sooner. As a thought though what do you do for his A time. At 17 weeks he doesn't need anything too stimulating. If he has a playmat with lights, sounds, play hangy things and alsorts limit it to just lights and hangy things, or turn the lights and sounds off. It may be that he is OS when he is going to bed and so thats why he is taking so long to get to sleep thus causing OT. Also his age group should have an A time of around 1.45 to 2hrs but some bubs may be slightly less or more, take this as a loose guidline, but one thing for sure is that anything over about 2hr 15mins is too long and will cause OT. Also this A time includes everything from wake up to being in one of the sleep stages, i.e. falling asleep or asleep. So if you are finding he is finding it difficult to get to sleep without your help, try putting him up earlier to give him more time, or do a longer wind down, maybe sing to him or read a story and carry on your winddown until he is very drowsy and very relaxed then put him to bed. Keep going! You are doing great! Its very hard, some people make it look easy as they are blessed with Angel babies. Some of us have slightly more highly strung babes and so take a little more tweaking and helping before they crack this sleep thing! Big Hugs xxx    Oh the 5am Wake up i can almost guarantee is due to the OT bedtime, once you crack thisnap thing and get him off the OT train, it will hopefully disappear. Stick in there girl. I'll hold your hand if you need it xxx

[sherrydl]

Hi Adaias mom
Thanks for the tips. I was getting really confused as to what his A time should be. I will aim for 1 hr 30 mins for a while. He's definitely OT so I will try to stick close to home and focus on getting short A times. I knew over 2 hrs was too much, it usually happened when he had a hard time falling asleep. But I had been aiming for 1 hr 40 mins or I hr 50 mins so I will shorten this for a while.

His A times is usually playing with me. He does do a playmat but with only a few items and none that make sound or light. I give him some times in his playyard too looking at his mobile which does move but I usually leave the sound off. I consider this quiet time but are mobiles OS?

Last night he again slept mostly through the night. He woke at 9:55 pm for his DF and again at 2 am when I fed him. Do you think 2 am is too early to be feeding him again? He woke again at 5 am. I held him and he fell back asleep a few times only to wake back up fairly quickly. Got him out of bed at 6 am. Tomorrow I will aim to sh/pt him in crib rather than holding him. I hope you're right that once the OT gets resolved, the 5 am will too. However, I'm still really pleased not to be waking up every 20-45 mins!

Thanks for the support and helpful suggestions!