4hr transition question - confused!!!!

[Adaias mom]

Well even though things might not look too rosy at the moment, focus on how much better things are now with the NWs. You have done so well getting this far, and hopefully we will get your little man off this OT train and into sleep land. Don't worry about letting him sleep, and if you find  he has crappy napped, don't worry about getting him to bed super early like 6pm as sleep encourages sleep believe it or not. Sounds like you have a plan. Well done mumma and bubba xxx

[sherrydl]

HI. Thanks for the encouragement. IT's true he's come a long way with his NW's. Do you think 2 am is too early for a feed (his DF is at 10 pm)?

His naps have me completely baffled. Tomorrow I'll aim closer to 1 hr 30 mins for an A time. Here's today so far. I wrote some questions in between.

Wake: 5 am, held on shoulder, back asleep, repeated the pattern twice more. Got up at 6 am
E: 6:10
A: 1 hr 35 mins
S: 7:35 to 8:45

E: 9:30
A: 2 hrs 35 mins (I was aiming for 1 hr 40 mins and it took 2 WD to get him to sleep)
S: 11:20-12:25

E: 12:45
A: 1 hr 50 mins
S: 2:15 -2:50

E: 3:50 (I’m trying to do 3:15 between feeds but this would have resulted in feeding and napping needing to be at the same time so I compromised between the two, this resulted in him going to bed a bit later than 1 hr 30. Any thoughts on how I should have handled this? Is napping more important at this point?)
A: 2 hrs (aimed for 1 hr 40 mins; what do you think should be the A time at this point?)
S: 4:50 (currently still sleeping; I had to hold him to sleep as he was hysterical. This has been the pattern for the last 3 days. Is he just too OT at this point? Should I stick with the program and not let him fall asleep on me or can I APOP until he’s better rested? Will this resolve when I get the A time right or am I headed for trouble due to the APOP? I was afraid that if I tried to do it in the crib, he'd be up until it was bedtime and such a long A time has resulted in problems in the past.)

I'll try to get him to bed early tonight.

Thanks!

[karendbrooks]

Just saying hey ladies.  Been awful busy around here - in a good way. 
Hope everyone is doing well.
Sherry - how are things going?  Hopefully you're on the upswing!  Hang in there!
Adaiasmom - Hi!  How's the teething going? 

quick question: Ian has been going to bed at 7:30 after a top off feed goes right to sleep and sleeps well.  But for the past 2 days, he's actually woken up at 10:30 crying for his dreamfeed.  How much should I give him at that top off?  First night he took 2 ounces, and last night he took four.  Should I try a full feed?  He eats at 5 and then again for the top off at 7.  Sleeps great after the dream feed.  Just wondering.

Hope everyone has a great night/day depending on where you are!

[Adaias mom]

Hi Ladies, Firstly Karen, if he is waking hungry at his DF then by all means offer him a full feed at 7.30. This is good as the fuller feeds should be earlier and the DF should just be more of a top up to get him through the night. This will make it easier in a few months when you want to wean the DF.   Sherry, He should be able to go one long stretch between feeds at this age. So if he is doing say 3 hours during the day, then him going 4 hours is longer, however at this age he should really be able to manage 5 or 6. How does he feed at 2am. Is it a full feed. Does he wake at the same time every night. This could well be habitual if he wakes at the same time, so you could maybe try W2S to get him past the 2am point and see if he can stretch it out. If he takes a full feed though it may well be genuine hunger. You could also try putting his DF back to 1030 and see how that goes. What do you think. It really does look like he is just getting more and more OT as the day goes on, and by the end of the day you will have to AP him to get him to sleep as he's too tired to do it himself. Only real way to combat it is to ensure that when he short naps you reduce his A time. Rule of thumb is that if you wanted him to nap 1.5 hrs but he only did 1 hr, reduce his next A time by 30mins. KWIM. You are doing really well, so well done you. His naps have definately improved loads, and NWs are good so way to go mum and bub. Just need to get these A times correct and we'll be sorted. Another point is that some bubs will reduce their A time as the day goes on. As a good e.g. my dd will do 4hrs am but only 3 pm, so it may be that he can handle 1.5 - 1.75 hrs A time in the morning but only 1hr 20 at night. You just need to really watch his tired signs and get him to bed when he shows tired. Have you tried not clock watching for a few days and seeing when he shows tired. If he is OT it may be as early as and hour.   HTH xxx

[sherrydl]

Hi. Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will try W2S as the waking seems pretty close to the same time every night.

We had a good night- 1 wake up at 11:30 due to wet jammies (he seems to be in between sizes for diapers and we get a lot of leaks), 1 wake up at 2 am for feeding, 1 wake up at 5 am. I sh/pt him but he didn't go back to sleep. I nursed him at 6 am and he fell back asleep until 7:15. I was all pleased with this but when I went for the first morning nap it was a disaster. It took him almost 3 hours to fall asleep even though I had him in the crib at 1 hr 30 mins.

I honestly have no idea what his A times should be any more. Yesterday he had three naps of 1 hr, one after an A times of 1 hr 35 mins, one after an A time of 2 hr 30 mins and one after an A time of 2 hrs (for all of them I had been aiming for an A time of 1 hr 40 mins). Then he had a 30 min nap after an A time of 1 hr 50 mins (and this wasn't even his last nap of the day)! I can't figure it out! I used to be able to figure out if the A time was right based on how fast he went to sleep and how long he stayed asleep but I can't figure out this pattern at all!

I think I will just watch for tired signs. He is definitely sometimes yawning at 1 hr. It feels a little like going backwards as we had been uping his A time but it's probably needed to get back on track. I see your point about shortening the A time as the day progresses.

Thanks 

[Adaias mom]

Hey sherry....Yeah on the good night! Sounds loads better than it has been. IKWYM about judging the A time by how the naps go and how easily they go to sleep, but this age is still very young and bubs can easily become OT. Try the W2S for a few nights and see how you get on, and whilst he is OT throw timings out the window and go with tired signs and see if he can get some good naps. Don't get disheartened though. Its such a hard thing to work out as they are evr changing! If it makes you feel any better you had a better night than me lol Bloody teething!

[karendbrooks]

Thanks again, Adaiasmom for the tip on the feeding. 
He's adjusted himself to being pretty much on 4hr easy with a little fluctuation here and there.  I've upped him from 5oz a feeding to 6, so let's see what that does.  I'm going to offer him 6 at his DF and see how much he takes.  Lately he's been draining that bottle and the one at 3:30.  Hopefully the fuller tummy will help.  Even though he's only ALMOST 4 months old, I think he's starting to work on teeth too.  Low grade temps, excessive drool, gnawing on hands and flushed cheeks.  Ugh.  I just sorta got him straightened out.  Not ready for that.

How are you doing sherry?  Sounds like things are getting a little smoother.  I've been thinking of you!

Gotta go make bottles now, so ya'll have a great night!

[sherrydl]

Hi ladies. We had another good night last night and for the first time in probably over a month we didn't have a 5 am wake up! Naps yesterday were a disaster but he was able to put himself to sleep sucking on his fingers for the first time (previously sucking on his fingers would calm him down but not help him sleep). So I left him unswaddled last night (mostly out of necessity as I couldn't keep him swaddled for the life of me) and we didn't have any unusual wakeups. He woke up once at 12:30 pm (not sure what this one is about, it's variable and I doubt hunger as he got his DF at 9:45 pm) and then at 3 am for a feed (I didn't have to W2S), then at 6 am. He went to bed at 7:15pm so technically 6 am is probably still an EW but at least it's not 5 am! I tried to nurse him back to sleep with only little success and we got up at 6:45 am. I followed his tired signs and his first nap he fell asleep in about 10 mins (but only after about an hour of the crib). So I'm going to keep watching for tired signs and let him have his hand to suck. These both seem to be working well.

Karen- good luck with the teething, I'm not looking forward to that! It's always something isn't it!
Adaiasmom - thanks for all the useful advice. it seems to be helping!

[karendbrooks]

Sherry!  That's great news about the no-5am-wake up.  Isnt that the best?!  The first time Ian didnt do that, I still woke up at 5 wondering what was going on!  SO glad to hear that things are working out.

Adaiasmom - how does it feel to be our hero?!

everything's moving along as it should here as well.  Bed time is around 7:30, we eat once at 3ish and then he slept today until 7:30.  I probably should have set an alarm   Down now for his first nap. 
A little aprehensive about this weekend.  My Mother in Law is going to keep him over-night on Saturday.  (both my DH's parents and my parents live about 5 minutes away from us.  And both want "Ian-time.")  My mother kept him over night once a few weeks back when I was sick, but that was before I had him all straightend out at night.  I'm worried that she might let him CIO or turn on the lights and play with him at the DF or 3am feed.  I am already writing out a novella of how to handle the night, but I dont want her to think I am just some crazy, paranoid first time mom.  I feel like I have to do it though, because last time I dropped him off just for a couple of hours during the day (dentist -yuck) I explained that it was time for a nap, and that I would put him down before I left.  Instead, she scooped him up out of the car seat and said "I raised three boys - I have the boy touch!" and proceded to bounce, sway and jiggle poor Ian while he cried.  The look on his face was like "MOM MAKE HER STOP!!!"  He likes to lay down and be left alone when he's going to sleep. I tried to explain this to her, but she kept shooing me out of the house.  I was going to be late for my appt if I stayed any longer, so I had no choice but to go.  I felt so bad for Ian.  But I dont want to anger my mother in law.  I realize though that I am Ian's voice, and I have made Erik (my DH) promise to back me up and present a unified front.  She's getting the novel.   

I know that I can fix whatever happens, but I would rather she just follow the plan.  whew.  Sorry, that got a little wordy...

Hope everyone has a great Friday! 
karen

[sherrydl]

Karen sorry to hear about the in-law dilemma.  I don’t have any solutions but I would give her a lengthy novel too! It sounds like you have a good plan. Maybe phrasing it about what's best for Ian might make it easier for your mother in law to follow, as in "through lots of trial and error, we've found this works best for Ian" or "Ian really likes it when we do this". Personally, I might also consider that if mothers and mothers in laws can't follow the program, they might not get to spend the same amount or type of time with my LO (e.g., if they can't follow the overnight rules, then maybe no more overnight visits). like you said, you need to be Ian's advocate. It's only going to be stressful for everyone (baby, parents, grandparents) if there's no consistency.

So we’re in the land of 30 min naps and I’m not sure what to do about it. I’ve been watching for tired signs and sometimes getting him ready even before they show up (by a few minutes or so). Do I just keep going until he’s caught up? Not sure how he’s going to do that with 30 min naps. Am I still keeping him up too long? Here’s our day so far today:

Woke: 6 am, nursed/slept 6:20-6:40, out of crib at 6:40
E: 7 am
A: (based on a 6 am wake up it would be 2 hrs; based on getting out of crib time it would be 1 hr 20 mins)
S: 8-8:35

E: 9 am
A: 1 hr 40 mins
S: 10:15-11:00

E: 12:15
A: 1 hr 55 mins (I started WD after the first yawn but it took him a while to fall asleep)
S: 12:55-1:25

E: 3:30
A: 1 hr 30 mins
S: 2:55-3:25

The only time he really put  up a fight to go to sleep was the 1 hr 30 mins period. I tried each time to get him back to sleep with no luck. Any suggestions on how to get these naps longer? 

Thanks!

[karendbrooks]

Hopefully Adaiasmom has a hint.  It was weird here; all of a sudden he just started doing it.  We are now pretty much on 3hr55minute easy, and I'm thinking maybe that helped?  His naps are about an hour and 45 minutes to 2 hours now.  Like I said, i have no idea what triggered it - he just did it. 

We're planning on being diplomatic with the mom in law.  Hopefully it just wont be push-over diplomacy. I may be a little too nice at times.    That's why the DH is going to help

Gotta go.  It's time to play!!! 

[sherrydl]

Hi Karen, how is the weekend working out?

We're having a terrible day and night over here. Last night we had 4 wake ups and a 5:30 am wake up. Today we're still having 30 mins naps. I'm putting him to bed every 1.5 hrs and it does not seem to be helping his OT. I think I was doing better when I was pushing toward 1 hr 45 mins. His longest naps have been when he's been awake for 2 hrs. He's never had a nap longer than 1 hr 15 mins. I hope something just "happens" over here too.

[karendbrooks]

Hi Gals!!
The weekend went ok.  He's been a little off today, but he did pretty well at Grandmas.  Saturday before we took him over was weird anyway.  Short naps and grouchy moods.  He slept ok for Grandma.  She did his Dreamfeed and his 3:30 am feed, but I forgot to tell her to do them in the bedroom in the dark. She took him out into the living room and had the lights and TV on.  Oops.  I goofed. 
Woke up at 5:30 which isnt normal, and she put him back to bed, but when she got him up at 7, he had wet through.  Maybe he was wet then, and that's what caused the wake up. 
Today he's done ok.  Hour and a half naps all day, and I'm hoping tonight is ok.  He's not getting a cat nap today.  Since his naps are odd, he took a long nap at 3:30 to 5:15.  So we are going to do bath, bottle and bed by 7 I think.  He's kinda being a grouch right now.  Hubby is playing with him, and Ian just isnt in the mood. 

Sherry - how old is your LO again?  Maybe he's hitting that yucko growth spurt? 

He's being really grumpy. Going to rescue DH now! 

[Adaias mom]

Hey  Girls, So sorry i haven't been around. Been a bit busy.  You both sound like you are doing really well, Sherry....sorry to hear about you bad night and 30 mins naps they do suck! I would say your bub is waking at 6, and then on and off til 6.40 but never actually settling, but then not going down for a nap until too late and so is starting the day OT. I would say if he wakes at 6, 5 what ever and doesn't settle back to sleep then use that time as his wake up time and give him about 1hr 40 mins and see how he goes. What do you think. Also as for the 4 hour transition. I really  wouldn't worry yourself and get too hyped up over it. Because your bub is breast fed, you may never her to 4 hours until he is on solids as Breast milk is easier to digest than formul and so bubs tend to want feeding sooner than those bubs who are FF.  How are you treating his wake ups. Are you able to resettle without feeding. If you are managing it then that is brill and be proud of yourself. You and your bub are doing so well. A few bad days can make you feel like pooo but don't worry it'll get better...promise....i'll help you XXX      Karen, sounds like you are doing fab! And yeah on getting a night off. Teething at 4 mths believe it or not is perfectly normal as the teeth begin to form, hopefully you'll not have too many problems, but just remember that when teething some bubs will drastically reduce their A time so keep watching for tired signs to avoid OT.   Hugs all xxx

[karendbrooks]

So we successfully weaned the paci, and now he's starting to wiggle out of the swaddle, so I'm guessing weaning that is next.  Any tips?  He seems to have a hard time settling if I dont swaddle him, which is funny, because at 4 weeks, I stopped swaddling him because he was over heating.  We got new swaddling cloths (muslin instead of that thick cotton of receiving blankets) and started reswaddling him at like 8 weeks.  Now he loves the swaddle.  Gah!  If it's not one thing...
Going to read up on the props board, but figured I would toss it out there to you ladies, too. 
Hope every one is having a great day!!
karen