4hr transition question - confused!!!!

[Adaias mom]

Karen, A good place to start is to leave one arm out and see how he goes with that. Otherwise you can just go cold turkey but if you want to wean gently try leaving one arm out, or you could try the Aussie swaddle. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0 xxx

[karendbrooks]

We've been doing one arm out now for about a month.  That's how I got him to hold his lovey while paci weaning.  Thanks for the link on the Aussie Swaddle!
We had a rough night last night.  DH and I went to a concert, and my dad watched Ian.  Well, Ian was asleep, so I guess he watched him   The kiddo woke up at 9:55pm.  Dad tried to get him back to sleep, but then just got him up.  Ian was wide awake and having his "dreamfeed" at 10:25.  Then at 1:45am, he was up crying again.  Got him back down, did a feed at 4am, and now he's up again.  I know this is just a tiny blip of time on his life, and I have to cherish it because I'll never get it back, but I gotta say, I'm looking forward to when he's a teenager and wants to sleep until lunchtime!!

[Adaias mom]

Hugs on the bad night, don't worry we al get them and i can guarantee you will get many more lol   Just make sure you try and limit OT today and opt for an early bedtime to make up for the bad night if he starts to struggle xxx

[karendbrooks]

down for his first nap of the day.  i'm hoping for a good 2 hours.  lately he's been doing 1 and a half. 
Here's a fun question... 
Ian gets his dream feed about 10:30 or so and then still wakes at 3:30 or 4  for a feed.  When will this stretch to 10:30 - 7ish?  He has a "baby buddy" who was born the day after him, and the other baby is breastfed and sleeping from 9:30 - 6:30.  Now, I am totally in love with my child and trying hard not to compare, but boy am I jealous.  I think the other baby is closer to 15 pounds, and Ian only weighs 13.  I know that somehow weight plays into this. 
Just a random question. 

[sherrydl]

Hi ladies. We're still have a rocky time over here. Adaias mom I see what you mean about the mornings but I'm not sure how this will work out practically. This morning he woke up at 4:45am, 5 am, 5:30 am and 6 am. I fed him at 6 (still swaddled etc), thinking of your comment (ie it was practically time to go down for his first "nap") but then he didn't fall back asleep (he had been getting up at 6:30 for the past few days). I eventually got him out of the room at 7am. Then I went to put him down to sleep after 1 hr 40 mins after his 6:30 wake time and he wouldn't fall asleep even after 2 WD. Eventually I took him out of the room, fed him and he fell asleep in my arms 3 hours after waking.

I also realized that he's been at 1 hr 30 mins for his morning A time for several weeks and he'll be 5 months old next week. So I think I need to keep pushing for longer A times. I think the short napping is because he's not tired enough.

Thoughts??? Still pretty lost over here.

Karen- I had to increase my LO's DF by an oz before he could move past the 5 hour mark for feeding. When I make sure he has long enough feeds during the day he also tends to last longer at night. Just a thought. I do know lots of BF babies smaller than 13 llbs who also can last longer than 5 hrs (but mine's just getting to last longer than 5 hrs too).

[karendbrooks]

hmmm.  what to do.  both of us. 

Whenever I give DS another ounce, he spits up all day.  Hmmm.  Going to have a long talk with the pedi on Friday. 

Sherry - we are also having some A time issues.  Well, it's more nap.  He'll do 2 hours A time easy, but only sleep an hour and a half.  So does that mean I'm not really on 4 hour?  This stuff is making my head hurt.  Ian gets up at 6:45 a lot, and I put him down at 8:45.  We just do low key A time all morning.  Books, weather channel for all of 4 minutes so I can figure out what to dress him and me in.... stuff like that. 

[karendbrooks]

Aidasmom - is it normal to regress a little from 4 hour EASY?  Ian was pretty much right on, and now he's napping an hour and a half, and can still stay awake and active for 2 hours, but he's all kinda wonky off the routine he had last week.  Been a bit of a grump today, too.  Today's EASY (and it's been like this for a couple of days)

6:45 wake (i let him play in the crib)
7:00 E
7:00 - 8:40 A
8:55 - 10:45 S

11:00 - 11:30 E
11:30 - 12:30 A (only an hour - he fell asleep while grocery shopping
12:30 - 1:00 S
1:00 - 2:00 A (couldnt get him to go back to sleep)
2:00 - 2:45 S

2:45 - 3:15 E
2:45 - 4:30 A
4:30 - 5:10 S (woke briefly, but went back down) and he's still asleep. It's 5:30 right now. 

According to 3hr 45min EASY he should sleep until 6:15, then I get him up  and do our normal bed time routine.  Just so weird because he was only doing 2 full naps and one cat nap, and today we're back to 3 naps again. 

He's starting to wiggle out of his swaddle (well, the other arm.  we only swaddle one arm in as it is), so do you think that has something to do with it, or is this just normal ebb and flow?

Thanks!
karen
2:00 -

[Adaias mom]

Karen,  Have you watched your lo whilst he goes into deep sleep. The swaddle is used for security and also to help with jolt between light and deep sleep. If your lo is over this stage and is able to transition to deep sleep without it, i would just get rid of the swaddle. Only thing you can do it try it for a few days without it, and if he starts to nap 20 mins then hes not ready to stop being swaddled. As for the 1.5hr sleeps. Its a real hard one as 1.5 hours is a good nap. There really is no difference to how refreshed they will feel between doing 2 or 3 sleep cycles, its just the valuable 30 mins for the 4 hour EASY. Don't worry about flipping between 3.5 hours and 4. You don't need to rigidly stick to 4 hours, just go with the flow and try and keep your feeds far enough apart so he is hungry enough to take a good feed. As for the longer stretches at night, i realy wouldn't ever compare your bub to another as some babes will go longer stretches sooner than others. Some don't sttn until 7 or 8 mths when solids are firmly established! It all goes on how well they feed at daytime, metabolism etc etc, your lo is still so young i really wouldn't rush him. If you really want to try and extend the feeding you could try W2S about 45 mins before his usual wake and feed time. If not limit the amount he takes and see if he ups his daily intake. HTH xxx

[karendbrooks]

He is definitely wiggling out of the swaddle.  Last night he kept coming out and waking up!  So this morning's nap I tried leaving both arms out and swaddling only his lower half.  He slept 35 minutes So I reswaddled one arm in and he slept for an hour.  Kooky kid.   
I think you're right about letting him stick with 3.5 or 3.75 hour.  He's happiest when I pay attention and just go with the flow (go figure)
I'm ok with getting up to feed him at 3 after last night's swaddle-fest.  It was like the pacifier all over again.  I think I just need to be better at swaddling him more securely.  Or try the aussie.  Thanks again for that!
(oh, and I am NOT complaining about an hour and a half nap - I know some moms that would kill for that!    I just didnt know how it would affect his day) 

[Adaias mom]

 http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652     Sherry , Please take a look at the link i have posted. Your lo should be looking closer to 2 hours A time now, but with his early mornings it all will be hard to judge actually when to start this from. When he wakes many times in the morning, how is he waking . What are you doing to get him back to sleep. It could be that with his waking in the morning he won't be able to do full A time from say 6.30 as this wasn't his actual wake up time, but because he was dozing for the hour or so he will be able to handle a little bit longer than his normal 1.5hrs. Also when you say he won't fall asleep 1hr 40 after the 6.30am wake up what tired signs is he giving you. What type of cry is he doing. Does he seem to not be tired enough or OT. It'll just be a trial and error thing. When he is waking at these times, do you think it could be hunger.  We'll work this out together, we just need to find that piece of the jigsaw puzzle that fits xxx

[sherrydl]

Karen- I spoke too soon about upping the DF. My LO woke up last night to spit up! My LO is also doing the one-arm swaddle and can't seem to handle two arms out yet. I always leave the same arm out. Is this a bad idea?

Adaias mom- I really appreciate the help. When he wakes at 5am I have been holding him until he falls back asleep and then putting him back in the crib. I usually feed him at some point during this EW in case it will get him back to sleep. It’s probably unnecessary though as he has a nighttime feeding between 2 and 3 am. This morning I just held him sleeping until his wake up time because I felt I needed a firm wake up time. This morning nap didn't go so well. I aimed for 1 hr 45 mins but at 2 hr 5 mins I held him again to fall asleep. I honestly don’t know what type of signs he was giving because I just gave in right away.

This has become a bad pattern as I'm so worried he's going to get OT that I hold him until his falls asleep. Of course in the long run this is going to make his naps worse so I forbid myself from doing it for the rest of the day. He was able to fall asleep on his own for his next three naps (with 20-30 mins of cyring) and remarkably was able to fall back asleep after waking at the 30 min mark on his own (with 20 mins of crying) but only for 20 mins (any thoughts on why he’d be waking at the 20 min mark now? he hasn’t done this for months).

There’s two different versions when he won’t nap. I’m guessing the UT crying: just crying and yelling. Other times I’m guessing it’s the OT crying: it seems like he’s about to fall asleep (eyes dropping etc) but then he jolts awake to start crying again. During his naps today, the second pattern was definitely it. There were 4 or 5 times I thought he’d fall asleep and then he would jolt awake and we’d start again. I guess this means I should shorten his A times. I tried to make them shorter as the day went on. Becuase I'm trying to break a bad sleep habit, should I put him in his crib early to account for extra crying time? Will this result in him being UT and crying for that reason instead? I'm expecting a poor night sleep as he didn't have very good naps today. so should I shorten A times tomorrow in anticipation?

Any suggestions as I work to break the bad habit of him falling asleep on me? Any other thoughts on A times?

Here’s our EASY from today:

Woke up at 4:45. Held to sleep and back in crib, woke up at 5:30. Held until he woke up at 6:30.

E: 6:50
A: 2 hr 5 mins (was aiming for 1 hr 45)
S: 8:35-9:05 (tried to get him back to sleep from 9:05-9:30 by holding but kept waking up when put back into crib)

E: 10
A: 2 hr 25 mins (estimate not sure what time he was really up during the last nap; i know this is too long but was stopping myself from holding to sleep)
S: 11:40-12:25

E: 1:20
A: 1 hr 50 mins
S: 2:15-2:45, sh/pt 2:45-3:15, slept 3:15-3:30

E: 4:10
A: 1 hr 25 mins
S: 4:55-5:30 (he woke up)

E: 5:55
A: 1 hr 15 mins
bedtime: 6:45

[Adaias mom]

Sherry, when you hold him to sleep, do you rock him. If you do, try and stop and if its just comfort he wants then just hold him but sit still. That way he is still falling asleep on his own, i.e. wothout motion etc. Have you tried holding him until he is dropping to sleep then just sitting with him saying soft words or just shhing. Of course the ideal is that you can put him down awake and he goes to sleep on his own but you have to start somewhere   Looking at yesterday i would say his first A time was too short, so he was screaming blue murder saying he wasn't tired enough to go to sleep for so long that he used all his energy and ended up OT. KWIM. Then he went Ot for the rest of the day. When you say he is crying for 20 or 30 mins, are you with him. Tracy doesn't recommend leaving them to cry alone. Also have you tried PUPD. At 5 mths this should be ok to use now.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=9287.0 Take a look at what i have posted. I would try extending his first A time to say 1hr 50 - 1hr 55 and see if he goes down any better. This of course is after a decent nights sleep, so heres some vibes for a good night xxx I am currently on my lunch break so will pop back on later and see if i can offer you some more help xxx

[sherrydl]

HI This morning was a disaster. He woke at 5:10 but didn't start crying until 5:25. I nursed him from 5:30-6:00 he was mostly sleeping. I put him back in his crib and he woke up. I sh/pt until 6:25 (he almost looked like he was going to fall asleep but didn't). Got him out of bed and nursed him. Used 6 am as the wake up time and as he had other wake ups (like 5:10) thought he should have a shorter A time. Clearly I was wrong. I've now done the WD three times and still no nap. I started at 7:20 i's now 9:20 and he hasn't napped. He's been having the EW for so long maybe he's used to them and I should still be using a longer A time regardless. I keep thinking I need to do it gradually and wokr up from 1 hr 30 where he's been stuck for months but he's ended up with 2 hr (or more) A times in the morning all week. Should I be APOP at this point as now he's been up for over 3 hours?

When I hold him I don't rock but I do sit in a chair with him. Sometimes I sh. He's usually on my arm and then I put him in the crib but not right away. Occasionally he'll open his eyes as he hits the crib and then go back to sleep. WHile he's crying I have been with him. I only leave him alone if its clearly mantra crying (is this okay to do?). I'm probably doing a modified version of pupd as I pick him up when he's crying (not mantra crying) and put him down before he's calm. Then I try to sh/pt while he's in the crib.

[karendbrooks]

Sherry - Big Hugs!  It sounds like you need one.  I hope that the rest of the day goes smoothly for you.  I will be thinking of you.

We had a bit of a roughish night here, but it was due to gas.  At a little after midnight, DS woke up SCREAMING!!  He never cries like that, and it scared me to death.  Even when he wakes up hungry, it's not an aggressive cry like this.  Holy Cow.  He was so tired too, but his tummy was hurting so bad.  DID NOT want to be picked up, and I was patting and shhing like a champ, but nothing helped until he finally passed it around 1am.  Then I thought he woke up at 3:30 because I heard him kinda crank up and this is when he usually gets a feed, but when I got to the nursery, he was already back to sleep.  Slept until 4:30, then ate and slept until 7:20.  He ate the whole bottle, but did it mostly in his sleep.

When do I know he's ready to stop that 3:30 feed?  I'm not in a hury to stop, and I dont mind doing it at all (it's so nice to snuggle him) but I dont want to create a waking habit if he's ready to stop.  I just dont know when to start looking for that cue.  Or what do I look for?

He's been having a few NW lately, but I think this is because he had such a weird weekend.  His Grandma watching him Saturday and taking him to the living room for dream feed and 3am feed (complete with lights and TV!!) and then his other Grandpa doing the same thing Monday night.  Poor kiddo.  He's all out of whack. 

A little nervous, too, because tomorrow he gets his 4mo immunizations.  Hopefully it wont wreck him too badly. 

Aidasmom - are you tired of all of my questions yet?!    Thanks for being such a supportive ear! Your encouragment and help is so appreciated!   

[Adaias mom]

Girls, i really don't mind helping out. Ask away. Sherry just wish i could give you a magic cure. I think i am going to ask some of the other girls to take a peek and see if they have any more ideas.   Karen....as for the 3.30 feed, you should find he will naturally put it back to 4.30, then 5, 5.30  etc etc. If you find he constantly wakes at the same time you can try W2S for 3 days and see if it is a habit, but if he is hungry he will wake. At his age he wil get out of whack pretty easily, give him a few days to settle back down. If he is still waking then we'll take a look at your EASY and see if we can tweak things to get him to settle down.     Sherry...hugs on the EWs. It is no doubt due to his OT during the day, but as your said until we can get his A time right he isn't going to get anywhere. Changing daily is not going to help him at all, you need to give him at least 3 days of anything new before deciding its not going to work as otherwise he'l just get mega confused to match the OT. This goes for not holding him to sleep also. I would say for naps and bedtime, use PU PD and give it a max 45 mins per nap and see how he goes.  This OT may be taking a real hold on him. You could try putting him right back to say 1hr 10 and see if he will sleep then. This is just going to be a real test of trial and error until we work out whether he needs more or less A time but all his naps seem to be OT naps. How does he wake from a nap. Happy or obviously still tired. Also what type of baby is he i.e. textbook, spirited. Have you tried not helping him at all. As in doing your WD and then leaving him. Just sitting next to him and doing PU PD when needed. I found with my lo she would not be shh patted once she could fall asleep indepently. It just drove her mad. And i thought she was not tired enough etc so fought for ages, until i just tried putting her down and hey presto. 45 mins fighting turned into 10 mins mantra and sleep! As for mantra crying its fine to leave them to mantra. Some kids take longer than others just listen carefully and if it escalates to an 'I need yu' cry then go to them. Good luck both of you! Hope things get better soon. xxxxx