5 month old sleeping problems

[Bwhitney]

Hello, I'm looking for some helpfull advice for my 5 month olds sleeping habits. He is breastfed and is on a 3 hour feeding schedule for about 1 month now. He still gets up every 3-4 hours for a feed in the night. I started to feed him pablum before bed, he loves it, and it still doesn't hold him over longer then 3-4 hours in the night. His bedtime is very routine and happens at 9:30 every night. He goes to sleep very easily but never lasts longer then the 3-4 hours. When he does feed in the night it takes no longer then 15-30 minutes and he falls asleep on my breast. Is that a bad thing? He also doesn't have good naps in the day. It is usually 3-4, 30-45 minute naps. I am wondering how I can get him to sleep for longer periods at night, and have longer naps in the day. PLEASE HELP!! 

[~ Vik ~]

Hi and welcome!

Could you post your typical routine in EAS format?  For example,
E 7am bf
A 7-9am (remember that A time is everything from eyes open to eyes closed)
S 9-1030am
etc.
Just to get an idea of what your day generally looks like and see if there's any routine tweaking that might help with your nap/night problems.  If you don't have a typical routine, try to even post what today or yesterday looked like.  930 is quite a late bedtime and could be leading to some of your night waking problems - but I will wait to see your routine to see how the entire day looks.   Also, does he fall asleep independently?  If not, how do you get him to sleep (feeding, rocking, patting, etc.)?

He still gets up every 3-4 hours for a feed in the night.

This is not entirely unusual at this age.  Ebf babies tend to need night feeds for longer than formula fed babies due to the composition and digestibility of breastmilk.  Can you think of any other reasons that he might be waking (teething, too hot/cold, etc.)?  Have you ever tried to settle him without feeding?  Has your dh ever tried to settle him?  Here's a couple links that you might find helpful:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52878.0

When he does feed in the night it takes no longer then 15-30 minutes and he falls asleep on my breast. Is that a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing (my ds always fell asleep during night feeds), as long as he doesn't *need* to breast feed to fall asleep. 

I started to feed him pablum before bed, he loves it, and it still doesn't hold him over longer then 3-4 hours in the night.

I actually wouldn't expect it to hold him over any longer.  There's no evidence that feeding pablum or other solids will keep them full for longer.  In fact, milk is more calorie/protein/fat dense than any solid food - that is why milk is the most important source of nutrition until the age of one.  Feeding solids too close to bedtime can actually cause night wakings sometimes due to gas (especially with rice pablum which can be very hard to digest) or upset stomachs.  If he's loving his solids then definitely keep going with them, just keep in mind that they are more for fun and learning right now than actual nutrition and calorie intake.

Big (((hugs))), you're going to get loads of ideas and support from all the moms here!

[Bwhitney]

Ok I am new at this, I am assuming E means Eat, A - Awake, and S - Sleeping
8 or 9:00 am - 11:30 am  (A)
9:30 am (E - beastfed)
11:30 am  - 12:15 pm  (S)
12:15 pm  - 3:30 pm (A)
12:30 pm (E - breastfed)
3:30 pm  (E - breastfed)
3:45 pm  - 4:30 pm  (S)
4:30 pm  - 6:45 pm  (A)
6:30 pm (E - breastfed)
6:45pm  - 7:30 pm  (S - only sometimes)
7:30 pm - 9:30 pm (A)
9:30 pm - (E - pablum and breast)
9:30pm - 1:30 am (S)
1:30 am - 1:45 am (E - breastfed)
1:45 am - 5:00 am (S)
5:00 am - 5:15 am (E - breastfed)
5:15 am - 8 or 9 am (S)
That's probably really confusing sorry, but that's pretty much our day, This is a usuall day give or take a 1/2 hour or so. The only real routine I have is bedtime. We start @ 9:00 pm. We start with a bath and then we do baby massage and sing songs. We then have pablum, breast and he is asleep within 5 minutes of the breast. He is very good at going to sleep!. He only falls asleep to my breast at night. He can fall asleep on his own and usually does during the day. It does worry me though. I wish he would almost stay awake for the breast and then I would just lay him in his crib to put himself to sleep. If he wakes in the night for a feed he falls asleep at the breast. If he wakes up before the 3-4 hours I just put a suckie in his mouth and my hand either in his hand or on his face and he goes right back to sleep. I do believe he may be teething, lots of new drool and he rubs his mouth allot and chews on his fingers, there are no buds yet but I think they are coming. I have tried to soothe him without a feed. He is hungry though, he usually has full feeds, which for him are 10 minutes. He rarely will just suck for a minute or two and pass back out. He does have Acid reflux but it is under control with medication and no longer has his tummy attacks, and he burps all on his own after every feed! Thank you soo much for helping me with this. I will take any advice and try anything you think will help!!!

[~ Vik ~]

I am assuming E means Eat, A - Awake, and S - Sleeping

You assume correctly   A is also called activity time.  Have you read any of Tracy's books?  If not, I strongly recommend getting your hands on a copy of Secrets of the Baby Whisperer or The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems (IMHO, I would recommend the latter at your ds' age as it goes into more depth with older babies than the first book) - Not sure where you are in the world, but Chapters, Amazon, most large bookstores carry it or you're likely to find it in the parenting section of your library.

So, a couple things that I've noticed

- Some of your A times seem really long for your ds' age - typical A times for a 5mo old are between 2h and 2h15m (from http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0).  One of your A times is 3h15m long!  To put that into perspective, many 7mo olds aren't quite at 3h A yet.  And sometimes before bed, if he doesn't take that catnap from 645-730, hes awake from 430-930   Long As can lead to overtiredness, and OT babies tend to take short naps, wake more frequently at night, and can be more difficult to settle for sleep.  I would try to keep a consistent A time of between 2-2h15m throughout the day and see if that helps your naps.  You would do an even shorter A after a catnap - roughly twice the length of the nap.  So if he has a 50m catnap, you're looking at about 1h40m (approx) A time before bed.

- TBH, I would not feed rice pablum right before bed.  Rice is notoriously difficult to digest, and could be leading to some of your nws due to gas or other digestive discomfort.  The pablum might actually be taking away from her hunger for the more calorie-dense breastmilk too.  Many studies have shown that solids do not lead to longer stretches of sleep, so you certainly shouldn't notice an increase in nws if you move the pablum to the morning or lunchtime.  Even if you were to keep it in the evenings I would do it at more of a supper time rather than right before bed. 
 
- Your ds is still on a 3h feeding routine through the day.  Have you ever tried stretching that out a bit?  Many breastfed babies need more frequent feeds than formula fed babies, but by this age he should be able to go a bit longer.  For example, my ds was on a 3h feeding routine until 4.5mo, then a 3.5h feeding routine until 5.5mo, then 4h.  I wouldn't recommend jumping to a 3.5h routine right away, but maybe try stretching it by 5-10m every few days and see how it goes.  The principle behind this is that by this age their stomachs have gotten larger and they should be able to take longer, deeper feeds.  By taking these fuller feeds, they can last longer between them through the day, and (most important to you) through the night.  Now, with your lo's reflux, make sure that you keep an eye on his reflux symptoms too as you stretch the feeds - some refluxers do better on smaller more frequent feeds.

- With the possibility of teething, have you tried medicating before bed?

- Tracy recommended a 12h day/12h night routine.  So, if your ds wakes at 8am, you would aim for an 8pm bedtime.  I fear that your 930pm bedtime is too late based on his wake up time, and that is causing you some troubles.  Is there a reason bedtime is so late? Late bedtimes are not bad in and of themselves if the rest of the routine works with it, but an earlier bedtime would probably help you out.

I've thrown a lot out there, and I hope that it's understandable!   Here are some links to have a look over when you get some time too, they will help you understand some of the principles of the EASY routine and give you some sample routines for ideas:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

Let me know what you think

[Bwhitney]

Oh my gosh thank you soo much for all this advice I am going to try all of it. And just because I reached for help yesterday my little guy slept for 7 hours straight for the first time LOL! I didnt do anything different at all. Im not sure why it happened but im thankful. Ok so im going to shorten his awake time and try to make his feeds stretch longer too. I will give him his pablum in the morning maybe instead of at night. I havent given him any medicine  for his teeth unless he is extremely fussy and its obvious its his teeth. I would then give him a dose of Motrin. Ok so due to the fact that he wakes up around 8:30 or 9:00 you recommend getting him to sleep around that time at night too!! I will get on that aswell. I am so thankful for all of this and am ready to try anything! I am just blessed that he is a happy baby, even with his sleep troubles. I dont know what I would do if he was a grumpy boy ontop of all of this. I wanted to ask you aswell if I should be scheduling his naps for the same time everyday? is that worth it at his age??

[~ Vik ~]

Glad that you were able to wade through my long post!   And so happy that you had that nice long stretch of sleep!

Make sure that you make your changes gradually, over the course of a few days or even a week or so.  You want to give your little guy time to adjust!  I would move the pablum to the morning and adjust your A times/bedtime first - I think you'll get the best positive impact from those.  Once he's used to the consistent A times and bedtime, then you can try stretching those feed times out a bit   And I would medicate based on his behaviour too (that's what I do with my ds) - if he's really irritable, chewing on his hands, etc. then definitely medicate before bed.  Those teeth can cause troubles long before there's any obvious signs of them, poor little things

I never did set nap times with my ds - I found that it worked better for us to go with A times - but his routine was pretty consistent so they did end up at similar times each day unless we had an awful ew or something.  I know that some moms swear by set nap times, but I don't know what age they become helpful.  You may even want to start a new thread in General Sleep or here in Naps to ask about it, you're sure to get loads of tips