Long NWs, no crying - just trying to sleep, any new eyes very welcome!

[Kay Dee]

Hi, I haven't been on these boards in AGES but I have been browsing through your thread and - you poor thing you must be wrecked!!

I have a 20month old DS who is of fairly low sleep needs (but not as low as yours seems to be!!). Your DS sounds so similar to mine, so I thought I'd offer my tuppence worth!!

My DS really needs to have his sleep 'managed' to get good nights. He's always been good at going to sleep, but not always good at staying asleep. If I do too early a bedtime/too long a nap he'll go to sleep fine but will wake in the night like your DS does. He's always been more of NW'er than a EW'er if UT.

What we're doing at the moment is:

W 7.30am
S 1-2pm
S 8pm

He pretty much always has to be woken at 7.30am and from his nap. I find if I let him sleep later in the morning he's happy to do so but then he'll be really unsettled for a few nights after, like he's too caught up on sleep. Or nap badly and then be tired and cranky. Every time we've let him sleep in we've paid for it after so we stick to waking him every morning and from naps and he always sleeps better for it. I often worry about OT when I'm waking him all the time but I can see the difference in him when I don't and it works better for us this way.

Sorry if I'm rambling here! I think, looking through your thread, that your DS is v. v. low sleep needs. I think that you could go the route of dropping the nap and stick with the early bedtime, but I'd be too scared for that...

If it were me I'd try to limit his nap, and do a later bedtime. Something like:

Wake him at 7am if not already awake
Nap: 1pm for 1hr only
Bedtime 8pm

I think it might be worth sticking fairly strictly to something like this for a few days to see what happens. What do you think? Sorry if I'm butting in here or if you've tried this route already...

[babybarr]

Does he actually cry for you in the night at all? Are you hearing him through the wall or a monitor?

He doesn't cry and I hear him regardless - he'll do things like pretend to fall over and pretend to sneeze repeatedly, as well as practise all his words and go through everything he has done in the day    When he's with my mum she has to pick up my youngest brother from school and DS will every night say "solomon school" over and over!

Kdee - thank you so much for your input.  Our alarm for work goes off at 6.15am every morning as we both work and I have to be in for 8am so no chance of him sleeping in.  He's a very light sleeper and if we're up and around, he wakes.  He will stay in his bed though until we get him - he is incredibly good like that though - so at weekends although he's awake we may not get him up till 7, but never much later, although we could probably leave him till 9am!!  His nap is already at 1pm, even with a 6am ish wake up.  He's always been a bad napper and on average currently is doing 1hr 15mins and we've sort of been waking him after that long.  He is usually asleep by 7pm, although tonight he was awake until 7.30pm... sigh.... 

I feel like the only option left is - a significantly reduced nap say 30mins or no nap... but I'M SCARED!!!

[babybarr]

I just wanted to share what has happened the last few days and see what you girls thought really - it's lovely to have a sounding board!

His nap had been at 1pm and he'd been napping around 1hr and 15-20mins.  I was putting him to bed nearer 7pm and it was taking him ages to fall asleep and still waking in the night and at 6.15am the following morning. So even though was napping better he was actually getting less sleep overall.

Sun I decided I was going to put him down at 12.45pm to preserve bedtime, he napped 55 mins

Sun
Wake 7.30am (he'd been up a good 2hrs in the night so we all slept in)
Nap 12.45 -1.40pm
Bed asleep 6.45pm (it seems no matter how long his nap is 5hrs is the time he falls asleep)

I *think* he STTN till 6.15 (I always say think as sometimes I don't hear him!)

Mon
Wake 6.15am
Nap 12.45 - 1.50
Asleep 6.55pm

I *think* he STTN till 6am

Tues
Wake 6am
Nap 12.45 - 1.50 (not sure what it is with an hour and 5min nap??)
Asleep 7pm (he was pratting around at bedtime and hit his head - he now has a black eye cue tears and upset!)
                 He did seem very tired last night and got hyper which would suggest OT but then wouldn't settle to sleep which for us indicates UT

He woke at 4am !!!!  EWs are very rare for us (NWs instead I guess?), he is cutting teeth which have previously caused EWs

It seems the 3 day rule thing happens with us - ok naps, 2 good nights, another ok nap (I know a lot of you won't think a 65min nap is ok but for us it is!) and then the 3rd night issues and back to square one.

So what do you think?  I am in 2 minds - conflicting ones at that! 
1st mind - 2 good nights and 3 ok naps = too much sleep and then a crappy night
2nd mind - naps aren't long enough an he gets OT and then a crappy night.

Sorry for yet another long post - I know you all have a lot to read aside from my issues.

[grace annes mommy]

That's exactly what we do. Set nap time, and then bed 4hr45/5hrs after wake up from nap.

I'm so excited you had 2 good nights. I hope you can get more!!!

[babybarr]

This is what I did for those 3 days, I'm just confused as to why it worked for 2 and not the other one, and now today is a complete mess!  I put him down a bit early for his nap as he is shattered, he slept an hour he had had a BM when I got him up so I can only assume that he would've slept a bit longer had this not happened.

[mmom]

Laura, just dropping off hugs, since I have no suggestions.  I wish I had something more to offer.  

I hate it when naps end because of a bm.  Happens all the time here.

[babybarr]

And can you belive after the day we've had, I put him down at 6.15pm cos he's shattered and it still took him till 6.50ish to go to sleep.  That is about 5hrs after nap.

I've had it now.  I feel so completely lost and have no idea what to do for the best anymore...     

[*Liz*]

((hugs)) Laura. I'm very frustrated with J and his sleep as well as you know  .

Based on those routines you posted why not try a 1hr capped nap and a fixed 7pm bedtime? That would seem to fit with his biorhythm as well. And just do it regardless for a whole week and see if you can ride through any OT and set the routine for a bit?

That is what I am trying with J - cap the nap at 2hrs and fix bedtime and see if we can ride out the OT and stop the EWs this way. I have done it before and it has worked. But certainly for me longer naps and shorter As to bedtime solve it for all of 1 day and then the issues all come back again.

[babybarr]

Thank you Liz.

He tends to do about an hour nap anyway so that helps me out a little - I hate to wake him as I spent SO long trying to get him to nap better!

He naturally lent towards a 6.30pm bedtime but clearly something wasn't working so I may do something like...
Wake 6ish
Nap 12.45-1.45
Bed 6.45 asleep for 7pm
What do you think?

[*Liz*]

I think that looks like a good place to start really - only a few differences from what you have been doing as well which should help in terms of not upsetting the balance too much.

And if he does bust a nap at 30-45 mins then ypu can do a 6.30pm bedtime to stop too much chaos bulding up.

I know what you mean about waking from naps - it is painful to do isn't it? But it is FAR more painful to be awake listening to rubbish at silly o'clock  .

[babybarr]

I know what you mean about waking from naps - it is painful to do isn't it? But it is FAR more painful to be awake listening to rubbish at silly o'clock  .

I agree.  It's my mum - who has DS 4 days a week - who's more reluctant!  I guess cos she doesn't have to do the NWs!  Cos he very often wakes after 1hr 5mins or 1hr 10mins, I've told her she can let him have up to 70mins and then wake him as then that gives him a little longer to wake on his own.  I can always do bed 10mins later I guess....  She seems happier to do it after 70mins.  If it doesn't work then I'll have to get tough with her!

[*Liz*]

My Mum watches J as well - but fortunately she will do as I want her too. I think as long as I listen to her opinion about it.

Actually I have given her the 10 mins extra rule as well as she never really is sure when he fell asleep (I have a video monitor  ).

Totally agree that they don't understand why though as they are not the ones up in the night. I explained to Mum today that I simply cannot start my day between 4.30 and 5.30am. Sure, J is just babbling in the cot, but I can't sleep as I hear him through the walls. Fortunately she seems to understand and will at least try it.

[louis-mummy]

Hi Laura

you may have already seen this thread but i thought i'd post just in case, hopefully it might be of interest?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=139157.0

i think (after reading it) that your schedule for 11hrs at night and 1hr in the day is a good plan (there are LO's in the thread having less than that )

i find OT v UT so hard to read too......

sending sleepy vibes for tonight

[grace annes mommy]

Laura, I think you're plan looks good! Good luck!

That thread was really helpful to see!

Really, DD is at about 12.5 to 13hrs total, and she's 18 mos.

We fluctuate between short nap/longer night and the other way around.  But for the past 2 weeks she's done a 1hr nap and 11.5-12 hr night. So, really not too far from what youre going for.

[babybarr]

Thanks for your help girls.

Last night was awful too.  He woke (well I heard him at 3.30am) and clearly had been awake awhile.  I gave him calpol as his teeth definitely are bothering him, he was back asleep I think around 4.15am ish but this morning I discovered he was wet through and had poo everywhere!  I just can't win!  He had awful nappies for the last few days so I think he either has a dodgy tummy or his teeth are worse than I thought.

Laura - thanks for digging that thread out for me I will venture over there in a little bit.