why is he waking ?

[lilly_kitt]

Hi

I really hope you can help, our baby is 12 weeks old and has never been any good at sleeping.  He tends to power nap during the day but never for long periods.  He feeds every 3 hours and takes 6oz, he is on infant gaviscon and ranitidine for his reflux.  He has a bath at 7.30 then it takes around a half hour to get him to sleep, usually being swaddled, but he can settle himself ,he is very restless in his sleep.  He will then sleep until around 11 where he will only re-settle after more food, then awake again at 2 where he will settle after replacing his dummy (he doesn't use one to go to sleep and can sleep without one), then at 4.30.  After this my husband went to bring him in with us as he would not re-settle.  He isn't hungry, wet, cold so I have no idea why he wakes.
We are going to see cranial osteopath on Saturday to maybe help with his restlessness, but surely by 12 weeks he should be sleeping longer.  He has bags under his little eyes, but is a very happy baby.  You would never guess he was so sleep deprived.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Sorry you're struggling.  I'm a veteran (feels like, anyhow) of the NW game and I know it's no fun!! 

Can you post what a normal day looks like?  I know you said he takes short naps, but when and how often?  Can you post in a format using E (eat) A (activity), S (sleep) like this....

7 am: E
8:30: S
9: A
9:30: E etc....

That will help us to understand what's going on at night! 

Also, does he always have the dummy going to sleep?  Is his room dark?  Do you use white noise? Does he nap in the crib or in arms?  How long has he been on reflux meds and do you think they're working well?  Have you ever done CIO?

Sorry for all the questions but it will help.

Here are a couple of links you might like to read:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52878.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=53450.0

I imagine with some routine tweaking and maybe thinking about props (dummy, bringing him into bed with you) that we should start to be able to get him sorted! 

[lilly_kitt]

Hi
Thanks for your response, a typical day goes like this

E 7.00AM
A 7.30AM
S 8.30AM (I normally nap with him if we had a bad night, so this is my Y)
E 10 AM
A 10.30AM (Baby Club or out and about)
S 11.30 (sometimes 12 if we have baby club, not for longer than 45 mins)
E 13.00
A 14.00
S 14.30 (Varies, sometimes 15.00)
E 15.00
A 15.30
S 16.30 (sometimes 1700, again only for 45 mins)
E 1800
A 1930 (includes bath)
S 2000

He has been on his reflux meds for almost 2 weeks, has gaviscon in every bottle and is on comfort milk as was suffering from colic, i'm not sure if the meds are helping really.  he tends to fall asleep on us, or in the car seat if we are out and about.  he can self-settle but only on a good night.  He only has a dummy to go to sleep if he is fighting sleep but again its not an essential for him.  His room is dark, with no white noise apart from our central heating system which he seems to like.  I've never tried CIO as I thought it was best for them to be over 6 months, also with my husband working shifts I dont like to leave him cry for long periods.
Thank you for your help.
x

[brenda2]

are all naps 45 min?  you didn't post wake up times so i'm not sure. 

i think you have a few issues going on...if his naps are always on you or in the car rather than in hte crib then he is used to these props going to sleep and this will make sleeping at night in his crib harder as he's not used to self soothing to sleep in the crib.  also he must be ot if he is only getting 4 x 45 min naps in the day.  at 3 mo he should be getting 3 x 1.5 hour naps and a 45 min catnap.  so he is very low on day sleep.  being ot and the prop dependency can cause nws and short naps as well..

his first A time is right but if this nap is short (45 min) then you need to reduce the next A time and put him down earlier, maybe after just an hour.  at 3 mo A time should be no longer than 1.5 hours.  if you keep him awake too long he will be more likely to take short naps and it can cause nws.

is he swaddled?  do you use shh pat to calm him?  you should be trying to put him down awake but drowsy for naps in his crib and then use shh pat to get him to sleep, rather than holding him for his naps or napping with him.  these are props and can cause nws and short naps as he wakes and then needs you to put him back to sleep.

if you reduce the A times and switch to calming with shh pat this should help the short naps and it will follow if he is napping better and not ot then he will sleep better at night too.

as for the nws.  it is normal for a 3 mo to have 1 or 2 feeds at night even with a df.  i would feed him at least once overnight especially if he is waking that often.  does he sleep in a crib at night?  how do you get him back to sleep when he wakes?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

I'm with Brenda on a lot of her thoughts!    Looking forward to your answers to her other questions.

I think the biggest issue is that he needs to learn to sleep independently.   Do you have the BW books?  I would start with shh/pat to try to get him to learn to fall asleep on his own in the crib.    Here's how you do it: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

It's not going to be easy but you have to start helping him to sleep on his own rather than on you.  I'm all for napping when he does but you should try to have him in the crib and you nap elsewhere so he doesn't depend on you to sleep. 

Glad you haven't done CIO.     I was asking just in case since this can leave trust issues but you won't have that.

You might think about dropping the dummy altogether if he's using it intermittently since it can easily be/become a prop.

I think if we sort out his naps and help him learn to go back down on his own that we should be able to get those NWs down to just a couple for feeds.  There is hope for sure! 

[lilly_kitt]

Hi

Thanks for the responses, I will try and answer all the questions.

His naps during the day do tend to be very short and the majority of the time they are on me or in the car seat if we are out and about, although he will also sleep in his moses basket at a push.

He can self-settle and he did last night after abit of grumbling, he sleeps in his cot bed at night until he gets so distressed i bring him downstairs with me.  Last night he last 8 until 2am with one feed at 12.  Then at 2 he would not re-settle, i tried shhh pat and also a slight rocking (which I know is another prop).
He is quite capable of losing his dummy as he is by no means dependant on it, and would rather lose it now rather than have a problem at a later date.

He is swaddled, as he is very restless at night due to his reflux and has a tendancy to wake himself up thrashing around.  He also has a stinking cold which threw it all out of the window last night as his nose was blocked.

At night when he wakes I either just place my hand on his chesy which sometimes works, or if he is very worked up then i pick him up and calm him and put him back down drowsy.

Thanks
x

[MummyToBen]

Hi,

 

He has been on his reflux meds for almost 2 weeks, has gaviscon in every bottle and is on comfort milk as was suffering from colic, i'm not sure if the meds are helping really.  he tends to fall asleep on us, or in the car seat if we are out and about. 

Ranitidine/zantac is VERY weight sensitive, and most people find that unless their lo is on the maximum dose for their weight that the drug really doesn't work very well at all.  Also, not sure if you've been on the colic and reflux board, but many many lo's just become resistant to ranitidine altogether (mine did, and we had months of him being in pain because we assumed it must be 'routine' issues that were causing our lack of sleep - but after his meds were changed he slept like a treat within two days!).  Many lo's are better on a ppi, and this might be something you need to talk to your doctor about. There should be a very significant improvement to your lo's eating and sleeping when they being medicated, and if that is not the case then push for something else for them.  

Hugs, it is very hard to have a baby who is in pain - and until that is sorted out then his sleeping will be difficult no matter what else you do.  Propping the cot up at one end helps, as does keeping them upright after feeds for 30 mins.  

xxx

[brenda2]

for sure get the reflux sorted out first and prop up the end of the cot to help with it.

i think that for naps anyway the prop dependency (rocking, sleeping on you, sleeping in the car) may be causing some of your problems with the short naps though the reflux would cause this too. 

if you think it's not the reflux i would work on naps being in the cot.  also,  if he wakes up after 45 min you really have to reduce the A time. if he normally does a 1.5 hour A time (which is right for his age) but then does a 45 min nap then he should only have a 1 hour A time following this short nap, or maybe 1 hour 10 min, not more.  i think you may be keeping him awake too long before the next nap and he is getting ot.  if all naps are 45 min he should have 6 naps in a day so his total amount of day sleep is near what it should be at his age which is about 5.5 hours in a 12 hour day.

[lilly_kitt]

Hi

Thanks for your responses, he has slept slightly longer today with his naps so will see if this makes a difference tonight although his nose is very snuffly so i'm not holding out much hope.  At the moment he is swaddled with his mattress raised with a full belly, so will see how long he lasts.

sarah
x

[lilly_kitt]

hi

he slept from 8 until 12 when he had a full feed, then the same at 2, was then really unsettled until 5.40 when he would not go back down.  I have no idea why he is so hungry at night as he eats well during the day !!

sarah
x

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Could be the 4mo GS for sure.  Have you hit that yet?

What did yesterday's EASY look like?  8pm is a late bedtime for a 4mo old....

Is he doing better at falling asleep independently?

 

[MummyToBen]

I'm only mentioning this because you said you didn't think that the reflux meds were working - but lo's with reflux often want to feed lots during the night because it soothes the pain in their throats/chest.  Reflux can also feel like bad hunger pains.  Also, being unsettled during the very early morning is also common in acid reflux babies. 

So, again, it is probably important to make sure the dose is enough and perhaps get a new medication, as without doing this it is very hard to figure out what is going on.  I really hope this isn't reflux pain, but you probably need to at least trial a stronger medication to rule it out.

xx

[lilly_kitt]

Hi

he is only 13 weeks, normally we start bedtime routine at 7 ish, but last night we had to drop my husband off so we were late starting.  Yesterdays routine was like this:

7.00 Eat
8.00 Activity
8.30 Sleep
10.00 Eat
11.00 Actvity
11.30 Sleep
Osteo appointment so awake, until fed at 13.00
14.30 Sleep
15.00 Eat
16.00 Actvity
17.00 Sleep
18.00 Eat
18.30 Activity (out in car), fell asleep in car seat
20.00 Put to bed.
He is really good at settling himself as long as he is swaddled and has a full belly, i think the swaddling helps calm down his thrashing due to the reflux.  Cot mattress is raised slightly also.

sarah
x

[lilly_kitt]

Hi

Thanks, i'm planning on getting him weighed again tomorrow as obv his weight has gone up in two weeks when his meds were issued.  Maybe he needs to be taking it earlier than every 8 hours, as the paed said not to wake him especially for the meds he sometimes isn't getting it until 10-11 hours after the last dose.

sarah
x

[MummyToBen]

Thanks, i'm planning on getting him weighed again tomorrow as obv his weight has gone up in two weeks when his meds were issued.  Maybe he needs to be taking it earlier than every 8 hours, as the paed said not to wake him especially for the meds he sometimes isn't getting it until 10-11 hours after the last dose.

Yes, that might not be helping either.  It is possible to give meds in their sleep - if you gently use a medicine syringe they just take it like a dream feed.  We do that every night with ds.  Have you looked at the reflux boards - it may be worth posting separately just to ask some questions about your lo's reflux. 

xxx