10mo NW's - Longer A time before BT needed?

[moosmummy]

Hi there.  I have been following the BW boards and books for a few months now and don't know what I'd do without all the fantastic threads on this forum!  

ds is 10mo and appears to have started the 2-1 transition.  As a result, our days have pushed out to 13 hrs as we have taken the long am short pm route (has always slept a good sleep in am but struggled with pm - he's touchy).  His pm catnap now falls quite late in the day and lately his nights have become a bit messy.  Our typical day looks like this (have done S only):

0645-0715 wake
3.5hrs A time
1015/10-45 - 1145/1215  am nap of 1.5hrs
3.50min A time
1535/1605 - 1610/1645  pm nap of 40mins - usually self wakes, today I had to wake him
3.20 A time
Bedtime 1930/2005

The catnap has gotten very late in the day as he simply refuses to go down any earlier.  This took a while for me to figure out after a bit of pm nap refusal as I was trying to put him down too early.

It seems around the same time as sorting this, we have begun to get NW's.  He will go to bed fine, no fussing, sleeps solidly till around 0100 which is when I hear the first stir.  He cries out briefly and then back to sleep.  Same again around 0300 and then at approx 0400-0430 he is wide awake for approx 1hr.  I have been listening and can hear him trying to settle himself back down but wakes before he gets into a good sleep and starts over again.  Initially I tried BF, pain relief, but he is just wide awake. Eventually going back to sleep in his cot after a cuddle.

I think he is teething, he has no teeth yet    but I don't know that this is the cause as we had a rubbish nap day over the weekend and he slept solidly that night, not a peep.  I would have thought if he was in pain he would've woken regardless   I am also not seeing any signs the teething is bothering him at any other stage of the day.  I am giving him pain relief at BT in case.

He is also starting to move alot more so he does have a bit going on at the moment.

I guess I was just hoping to have some advice on whether there is a glaringly obvious tweak required in our day to settle his night down?  His nights are also getting rather short at the moment at around 10hrs to 10.5hrs sleep... which i believe is a trait of 2-1 transition?  

I have read the 2-1 transition threads and info with great interest and wonder if I need to start shortening his am nap in order to bring the pm nap forward in the day and therefore have a bit of a longer A time before bedtime?  8pm is a late BT for him!

Thanks so much for reading my novel.  Apologies if this is more an EASY board question, I thought given the NW's are the problem I'd start here  

Serena

[_newmom_]

Tagging along if that's ok as we're having terrible NWs at the moment, and I am desperate to get our household back to sleeping normally!!  Hope you don't mind.

[Tweakster]

Hi there, actually I think the long A to bedtime is a problem.  He has a long middle A after a 1.5 hr nap and then another long A to bedtime after only 40 mins CN.  I think I would aim for less, probably 3 hours to bedtime after a 40 min nap, possibly less.  With short nights and long A's I think some OT is building up.

[moosmummy]

Interesting, thanks very much Wendy.  Last night was rather messy with the long NW at midnight thru to 0130.  ds crying lots and just not able to settle back down.  This is very unlike him, but then, so are the short nights.  These have appeared over the last week or so.  he was a consistent 11.5hr sleeper with very brief night wakings for which he could resettle himself most times.  I will see if I can get him into bed earlier tonight.  He just doesn't seem ready any earlier, rolling round in cot, playing with his toys.  But then, I know through reading this site that behaviour can also be OT. 
Will see how we go and thanks for saving me from trying to have an even later bedtime just yet.... our evenings are disappearing!

[moosmummy]

Oh, and _newmom_ , no probs at all..... NW's are not much fun at all!  We used to have great nights and rubbish naps.  Now that I have *sorted* the naps the nights have turned upside down.... arrgh!

[moosmummy]

Wendy, I think you might be right with the OT thing. 

Yesterday's am nap was 1.15, it's always 1.25 so suspected OT.  Then he started rubbing his eyes at 2hr30m A time so I thought I'd try my luck at getting him down.  He was asleep at 3hr A time, gave me an UT 40min nap but brought us to a better BT, asleep after 3hr10A time.  Then he STTN, giving me 11.5hrs. 

Wondering if that middle A time of nearing 4hrs is actually wrong and I'm missing his first sleep window? 

Anyway, will see how we go over the next few days.  I can hear him stirring in his am nap as I type, after 40mins S so hoping I'm not going to get an UT am nap to really confuse the situation!

[Tweakster]

HI there, it's hard with those UT/OT loops.  Honestly from 9 - 12 mths was the worst sleep time for us - and I used to say that about 6 mths lol.  Now I have him on 1 nap at 12 mths - so it does get better.  But trying to balance the right A time for their age and knowing how much day sleep to cut is like an art form :-)  I missed Finn's sleep window all the time...he goes into second wind mode without melting down first.  So he seems fine and then - volcano effect.

[moosmummy]

Yep, I think we are definately on the OT train.... Today his am nap was 1.10 despite falling asleep on my shoulder during wind down (never does that).  Has now just woken at .35 mark after BT crying.  We haven't had that for a few weeks.

Wendy, I think I remember in another thread you mentioning that Finn's A times dropped quite a bit while he was teething?  Tyler has just had is first tooth through and I suspect there will probably be another close behind given his age... perhaps that has contributed to the 'wonkiness'  

I bet you are glad to be out the other side of the 2-1 transition.... I almost cannot wait until ds can handle one nap.  I should be careful what I wish for though.... 

Anyway, I think I have digressed slightly from the NW topic.  I don't know what I would be doing if I didn't have this forum.... it makes me feel a bit saner to know other lo's are riding the same rollercoasters and that we are all in this together!

[Tweakster]

Hi there, yeah Finn dropped when teething...also with his cruising and pulling up...anything milestone happening for Tyler?  Oddly enough his A times are not dropping with the start of his walking...he just seems to go go go now, he's not getting exhausted like he should lol.

We are happy to be on the other side of the transition yet here we still have EW and 10 hour nights and so we need to actually cut the 1 mere nap we have lol.  It gets easier in ways but yet the tweaking really never stops ;-)

[moosmummy]

Yes, Tyler is also starting to crawl... well, he's bottom-shuffling and is now starting to fall forward onto his hands but isn't sure what to do next yet.  So that combined with teething may be taking it's toll on him.

I have reduced that middle A time to around 3hr20 at the moment, he still gives me the same length nap as A of 4hrs so I don't really know what to take from that.... except that I have always had a lot of trouble working out his pm nap/s    Sometimes I wonder if he's actually low on sleep needs, either that or he is totally the other way and I'm completely missing everything he's trying to tell me.

Sounds like Finn is enjoying his newfound mode of transport... how exciting, I just cannot get over how quickly they are growing up though... 

[Tweakster]

Sometimes I wonder if he's actually low on sleep needs, either that or he is totally the other way and I'm completely missing everything he's trying to tell me.

This is my life, in a nutshell.

I do think the crawling etc. will cause A times to drop ever so slightly. 

[moosmummy]

Just wanted to update and say thanks for your help Wendy.  It seems the NW's were definately due to OT.  Also a bit of teething methinks (thus causing tiredness).  I cut his middle A time for a bit and he appeared to catch up and we had a lovely run of 5 solid nights with not a peep... and even a couple of almost 12hr nights   

He can't do more than 3hrs10 A to BT off the back of only .40min CN in pm.  Total day A time cannot be more than 10hr20.   

I think OT has started to creep back in again in the past couple of days, but pretty sure I know what has caused it and will try and get back to where we were    I tell ya, he's oh so touchy with his timings....

Fingers crossed