18mo sleeping only 10 -10.5hr nights and EW - how to fix this?

[shresmummy]

Hi, DD just turned 18months old and for the past month or so we had been having a really good routine. She never had 12 hr nights but recently was doing 11+ hr nights and I was happy with that. Our routine used to be:

Wake - 6:30ish
nap - 12 - 2 (sometimes I let her sleep till 2:20 and then I would wake her up if she was still asleep).
Bedtime - anywhere between 7:15 - 7:30 (and would fall alseep within 15 mins)

She has never been the best sleeper from birth and used to constantly have lots of NW during the 2-1 transition. She fully went to 1 sleep at around 15 months, in December. So when we finally established this routine things were going well and she was STTN most nights, except for maybe a few nights where she had some brief NWs wanting water becuase the weather was so hot.

Recently for the past few weeks, I have noticed a few changes. Firstly, she has been taking a lot longer to fall asleep at bedtime (something which she was famous for during the 2-1) and finally only fell asleep only around 7:50 or so.

Secondly she has started waking up around 5:30 or 5:45 and often refusing to go back to sleep. Sometimes she does though, so the EWs are not quite consistent yet. But for the past few days she has been waking up at 5:45 and chatting away and is basically up for the day.

The other thing is she was teething 2 weeks ago so had some NWs, which I put down as related to teething. But now the teeth have cut through so I don't think they're the problem anymore, but I can't say for sure.

I have also been doing GW with her for the past month (due to some APOP which backfired during the 2-1 to avoid OT). We've got to the stage now where most nights she falls asleep with me just sitting quietly in her room. I have yet to get to the stage where I can walk out because she starts crying and wants me back in there.

I'm not sure how I need to tweak her routine to avoid the EW and fix the problem of taking almost 30+mins to fall asleep at bedtime. I am a bit hesitant to cut her nap shorter than 2hrs because most days I have to wake her up from the nap. That means she must be needing that amount of sleep right?

The past few days, even with her EWs I've been sticking to a naptime of 12 and she usually naps until I have been waking her up.

Can someone please help me fix these issues? and also advice me on how to leave the room with my GW plan? I was thinking I should tackle the routine problem first, because when she's just the right amount of tired (but not OT or UT) she usually falls asleep quite quickly and hopefully will learn not to fuss too much when I leave the room.

Thanks for your help!

[Colin Macs Mom]

bumping

[shresmummy]

Hi, thanks for that

Just to update, last night and today were a total mess also I"m really unable to figure out what's going on with DD.

Last night - went to bed at 7:40 PM (I had been trying to get her to sleep since 7:10 or so. She napped from 12-2 yesterday so I thought 7-7:15 was a reasonable bedtime?)

NWs - brief NW at 4:20Am, settled quickly but woke again at 5 AM and was chatting, but I think she was still tired. I AP'd her back to sleep at it took till 5:30ish to get her to sleep. Then she slept till 6:45 AM today.

Nap today - I put her down as usual around 12ish she slept arou 12:15,, then woke again in 5 mins or so and started singing!!!!!  I went back in and patted her and she fell asleep within 5 mins. But she didn't sleep long or well today. She was up at 1:45 chatting away. and no amount of AP would get her back to sleep, she wanted to "Getup". So I gave up.

Bedtime today - tried around 6:50 or so because she started rubbing her eyes and I knew she hadn't napped well. She eventually slept at 7:15.

Keeping my fingers crossed for a decent night and a decent wake up tomorrow.

I can't figure out whether she's OT or UT??

[*Becky*]

Bumping up again x

[Tweakster]

Hi there, I don't have a lot of experience with this age group but EW and taking longer to go to bed seems to signal a sleep needs change to me.  I might be inclined to cut back on that nap a bit.  I don't think because she's sleeping that long that she necessarily needs that sleep, if she needs the sleep it's better for her to get it at night, but as long as she is getting it in the day, there's no incentive to do a longer night IYSWIM?

Is there anything developmental going on with her just now...some kind of cognitive advance?  Teething is of course always a dark horse in the running.

I do think that at her age I would be limiting the APOP to a bare minimum.  You might be a prop.  Since you are already working on GW I think you need to proceed with it and just a bit of tough love with her, take GW to the next level.  What about WI/WO?  Have you given that a try?

[*Liz*]

I can't help with the GW part as I am a WIWO girl myself  .

But I would guess that she is actually getting a bit OT at the moment really and is therefore getting the EWs - so what I would try first is to bring bedtime forwards a bit and see if that helps at all.

We got into a bit of a mess about 8 weeks after switching to 1 nap as I was finding that he was only napping 1.5hrs and then getting OT before bedtime. So I moved the nap back by 30 mins and that sloved that problem and he went back to sleeping 2+hrs again.

But I have found that when the nap moved back the final A to bed actually reduced rather than extended - so I wonder if what is happening is that your LO is using up all of her stamina in the am after tha EW, then cannot handle her final A time as well, so you get bedtime resistance?

What I find is that if the first A is 5-5.5hrs then his pm A will be 5 hrs. OT creeps in fast here with anything over 5 hrs final A. BUT if he does 6-6.5hrs am A then the final A will be more like 4.5hrs if I don't want the EW.

Some Mums do try nap cutting at this stage but a lot of these LOs actually can't handle it as this stage, so often juggling the A times and sometimes even accepting a slightly shorter night of 10.5-11hrs is actually better and leaves then happier for now until they can handle bigger A times.

I wouldn't bother trying to AP a longer nap either - I would just do an early bedtime. Using AP during a period of sleep training is a bit counter productive really 

[shresmummy]

HI ladies, thanks for the responses. Liz, I would also agree that I think she's OT, and that's the reason why she's taking longer to fall asleep. And the other thing I've noticed is that on the days of the EW she was quite fine to keep going up until her usual nap time of 12 or just a little earlier like 11:50. But what I've noticed is that on any day that she naps any later than 12, she only has 1.5hr naps or even less, even if her usual A time was 5 hr. Is that a body clock thing? or what?

I am a bit reluctant to cut the nap Wendy because I have noticed with DD she NEVER makes it up at night, no matter how badly I want her to I usually never let her sleep past 2hr 15 mins. Is that an ok nap length?

So perhaps is it ok to have a 10.5hr night? what happens though when it's 10hrs? 10.5 I think both DD and I can handle but 10 hrs bring about some issues I think because it's just too much of an EW for her.

But I think for the next few days it's no point me trying to do anything because as luck would have it, she caught a bad cold on Friday so our nights the past few nights have been shocking to say the least. She has been waking up every few hours unable to breath and will only settle if I hold her upright. What can you do I suppose.

I'm going to wait for this bad spell to pass, which I'm hoping will be within the week and then assess it again and see how to juggle the A times.

I have tried WIWO but it just excites her even more and she thinks its a great game or she gets really upset and then takes even longer to settle. I've got GW to the stage where she can sleep without anything from me except my presence in the room, and sometimes me needing to tell her to "lie down" if she gets up and wants to take a peek at me. I sit quite far away from her cot.

I just don't know how to walk out the door without her calling me back in by crying.

Hope you're all having a good weekend.

[Tweakster]

I am a bit reluctant to cut the nap Wendy because I have noticed with DD she NEVER makes it up at night, no matter how badly I want her to Sad I usually never let her sleep past 2hr 15 mins. Is that an ok nap length?

I am always one to cut day sleep in favour of night sleep, mainly because we always have short nights and I will do anything to elongate them.  Finn doesn't make it up at night either but I keep hoping one day...lol  He is also a pretty easy-going kid, although Spirited, he doesn't lose it too often and has endless energy, it's easy to get him smiling again unless he's in pain or really way off the wall OT.  He's really a cross between Angel and Spirited I think, if it is possible to have that mix.  I must do that quiz again...I used to think Textbook & Spirited but now I wonder.

I still think maybe even 2 hrs might help you out, if she's had a 10.5 hour night it would put you at a reasonable amount of sleep in a 24 hour period.  Then she might give you 11 overnight.  Is she waking on her own at 2 hr 15 or are you doing it for her?

We are finding the same really, if we put him down before 12 (11:30/11:45 etc.) he seems to give a longer nap, upwards of 3 hours some days.  But if he gets to sleep after 12 - it's a bit restless and he will do 2 hrs+ but he doesn't seem as rested for some reason. 

WI/WO doesn't work for every LO...it's not great for Finn but GW hasn't been working lately either.  Really most of the time we have to leave him to it, alone.  Only going in to 'shush' it he really kicks off.

But Liz is/has gone through it so she knows way more about it than I do.  It's like fast forward about 4 months (perhaps less!) for me, seems Finn and Liz's J follow similar sleep patterns.  The joys of low sleep needs kids (or kids who just 'think' they are low sleep needs).

I hope she gets well soon, I hate when illnesses are thrown in the mix, it just makes for an even harder decision!

[*Liz*]

I think of you are getting 10.5hr nights and and 2-2.5hr naps that would be quite normal for this sort of age really.

I find that 2hrs is the right nap length for J, and in combo with the right A to bed that *should* do a 11hr night. A nap shorter than 2hrs will do an 11-11.5hr night but not for long as he will get OT. That is why I don't nap cut ATN as he just can't handle the final A for long enough to not become OT and then the nights get even shorter.

Simpliest thing to try would be to make sure she is asleep before 5hrs A for a few days (once this cold passes) and see if that helps any. But it will risk earlier wake ups, I guess.

The other option is to start pushing that am nap back a little to get it closer to 12.30pm to give you a 2.30pm wake-up, and keep bedtime as it is (so asleep by 7.15-7.30pm).

GW is not my forte either - but perhaps the next stage is to sit in the doorway, then just outside and just reassure her with your voice if she cries rather than going back in, and then finally out.

[shresmummy]

We are still not having a good run she mostly seems to have recovered from the cold, but is still back to taking ages to fall asleep at night, even if I try to make sure she's asleep by 5hr A time.

This has been our routine the past few days, can anyone see anything I might be missing??

We had a shocking day today. She woke up at 5:45 this morning, after falling asleep at nearly 7:50 PM last night I had been trying to get her to bed since 7:10 PM last night.

She was so OT today due to childcare as well this morning. The earliest I managed to get her down for a nap was 11:45, but I think that was still too long. She slept till about 1:25 and then woke up.

I took her into bed at 6:30 tonight, she fell asleep by 7 only. had a brief wake at 9:30. I'm hoping for a better night.

[*Liz*]

She is just OT ATM, I think.

((hugs)) and try and get that A down a bit further to catch her up again.

This toddler sleep isn't as easy as I hoped it would be either  .

[Tweakster]

Somehow OT has crept in for us as well, molars maybe, or all the fresh air, my big push to have a nice fun-filled final week with him.  He gave a 1 hr 20 min nap today, our first short nap in ages and ages - something was nagging at me to put him down earlier even though he slept until 7:30 (after his routine EW) but I didn't and it bit me in the butt.  Time for early bed again, ugh.

Yeah toddler sleep is as complicated as newborn sleep lol

Shresmummy I am wishing you well and sending sleep vibes your way.

And of course I am ALWAYS sending you sleep vibes Liz & J, goes without saying! ;-)

[shresmummy]

Thanks ladies your good vibes must have come through, becuase she had a fairly decent night last night. Went to sleep by around 7 and after her brief 9:30 NW she woke only at 6:35 this morning. So that's something!

But our nap didn't go well today not sure why. She was asleep around 12 but woke up at 1:40. That's nowhere near her good naps from last week before she fell ill.

I"m stuck atm because I can't figure out whether her sleep problems are routine related or something else. Anyway, I took her into bed around 6:30 and after story, cuddles everything she fell asleep by 7:05.

The GW is going really downhill. She was ok after I put her down in the cot for a bit but then she started crying and then had a runny nose and that was the end of that for tonight! I had to carry her and then she'd settle. She normally doesn't cry during the GW, so something was bothering her. And as always, I will never know what it was!

Good sleep vibes to you ladies too!

I am so OVER this!!

[JaspersMum]

Hi Priya!  I just thought I'd put my two cents worth in - don't hold it against me if I'm totally wrong, but DS was doing the same thing with his naps - although we weren't getting early wakings, just short naps.  I ended up extending his A time and it worked a charm.  He now does 5.5 hours in the am and 5.5/6 in the pm IF his nap is a minimum of 2 hours.  I make sure the nap is no longer than 2.5 hours, and I also try and stick to a 13 hour day, otherwise he fights bedtime.

[*Liz*]

We are in a mess as well now  , right bunch we are hey?

Jaspers Mum - at what age did your LO switch to 1 nap? I'm sure my solution is loger A's but he keeps getting OT in the process.