4-hr EASY for EBF baby?

[Vicku]

As DD is 4mo today and I think we need a bit of a routine tweak, I'm wondering if doing a 4-hr EASY is realistic, recommended and possible for my EBF bub if aiming to BF for at least a year and not starting solids til 6mo? I'm sure it works for some, but could storage capacity of mum's breasts affect this? (would she get enough plus keeping milk supply up?) and if so how would I know? Am worried about getting a low supply as that happened when I BF DD1 and we had to end at 9.5 mo as there was no milk left and she had started to prefer the bottle and just refused the breast eventually :'(

We have been on a 3-hr-ish EASY for a while now (6 weeks or so I think) but she is starting to manage longer A times now (1.45-2hrs) but is definitely not ready for more than a 3-3.5 hr EASY in terms of feeds yet (can go the occasional 4-hr stretch but then makes up for it with a 2-hr cycle afterwards).

How do you get around it if they manage the same A times as a 4-hr EASY but you need to bf at 3 or 3.5 hrs? She sometimes goes 3.5 in the day now, but is still feeding quite a lot at night and often lots in the early mornings (5-7am tend to be feedathons ) and I'm a bit confused about the 3-4hr EASY transition and whether I should encourage it or wait and stay on a 3-hr EASY. 45 min naps are quite common now so thought she was going towards 4-hr EASY, but it seems her A-times and her E-times might not quite match up and that's confusing me as I'm not sure quite how to structure things??? I've read the info here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0 but I can not work out how to make it work! Mind you I am quite sleep deprived, so sorry if I'm being thick but could someone help me and explain how to do this please?

Also how many breast feeds are usual/recommended in 24 hrs at 4mo? DD is very small (3rd percentile on WHO's charts) and had digestive problems until about 10 wks old and didn't put on as much weight as 'desired'. Was born just above 15th percentile (6 lbs 4 oz / 2850 g) and has since dropped to the 3rd percentile line and following that now. (Her height/length was always on 3rd percentile from birth (18.1 in / 46 cms), so she is proportionate and maybe she was just supposed to be 3rd for weight too )

Any advice on how we can structure things to get both S and E to work well, preserving best possible milk supply and ensuring BF will continue to work well, is very much appreciated!

Many many thanks!

[Alison_3]

Hi Vicki- not any real advice, but wanted to share that Madeline is almost 7 months old and we're still not on a 4 hour EASY.  We're more of 3-3.5.     I don't know if or when we'll get there.    She's was a preemie and is still quite small...13 lbs. so I don't realistically think she can go 4 hours. 

We're dealing with short naps right now so our EASY is a bit modified anyways.  Wish I could be of more help! 

[anna*]

I don't have much advice but I do know that it is realistic for some bubs and mums to be EBF and on a 4hr EASY, because we did it. I've had some periods of low supply, can't remember if one coincided with going to 4hrly feeds, but I always responded really well to Fenugreek.

[Vicku]

Thanks for the replies Alison and Anna 

I just had a look and Sienna is just under 11 lbs (4980 g) and charted her new weight on the WHO chart and she's actually dropped down, below 3rd percentile now for weight and is OFF the chart Hope that doesn't mean she's not getting enough. She doesn't seem to want more Has stayed bang on 3rd percentile for height between 3 and 4 mo.

Thanks for sharing Alison. Do you think the short naps are because of needing to eat more often then?
It's reassuring to hear you did it Anna, as you've managed to bf for so long I wish I'd known about fenugreek last time The only advice I got from my HV when low supply and unable to express enough for Lois' feeds while I worked was to top off with formula... which DD then turned out to be allergic to nightmare! And when she refused the breast at 9.5 mo I was told she self-weaned, but I'm sure it could have been avoided if I had more support

[deckchariot]

We also made it to a 4 hr EASY and dd was ebf and didn't start solids til 6 mos.  She self weaned at 14 mos.  I don't think we made it a 4 hr EASY til she was almost 5 mos - I did the transition really, really slowly.  If you stay at 3.5 hr EASY, that's fine too, the naps are just a bit shorter, and you'll probably keep the catnap longer than others.  Whenever I had supply issues (usually around the time of AF or a growth spurt), I'd just pump extra.  I posted on here and was told that pumping for 10-15 min at the end of a feed would help increase supply, even if it was dry pumping (and it almost always was).  I found it would take about 3 days of that to see an up in my supply.

hth
michelle

[Alison_3]

Vicki-  I think the shorts naps are most definitely out of hunger.  I've been really trying EASY, but yesterday afternoon after two 30 minutes naps, she was due to feed when nap time rolled around.  So I fed her before her nap and she slept 1 hour 45 minutes.  Same thing this morning, fed before her nap and she slept 1.5 hours.  Not sure what to do...

Right there with you on the weight...Madeline weighs 13 lbs.   I was told too that I could top off with formula, but am scared of exactly what happened to you! 

My friend's DD did 4 hour feeds at 5 months and STTN  at 3 months and was EBF.  Me jealous, nope not at all.   

[anna*]

It makes me cross, how keen HVs tend to be to get people topping up with formula. ALMOST everyone I know who has gone that route has ended up giving up BF before they wanted to.

[huntersmummyinoz]

on a 3.5hr EASY will she give you decent length naps?? that way you could have 2hrs A time and still 1.5hr naps.

if you want to see if it is hunger related then you can try a top up before S (with a short A following which of course you know ) and see if it makes a consistent diff to nap length. as at 4mths could just be developmental too. at 3/4mths old their sleep cycles switch, newborns have light/REM sleep first and then deep sleep, but at 3/4mths it switches and they have deep sleep first and then the REM sleep which is why it is hard for many bubs to be able to transition to the next sleep cycle at this age. (prob not telling you anything you dont already know here tho )

also if you have weight gain concerns and all else fails then you could try an EASY like is often recommend for refluxing bubs who need more frequent smaller feeds, so EAEAS. eg. a 4hr cycle would be E 7am, A, E 8.45, short A, S 9 - 11am. (something like this could help increase your supply too if you wanted to try it for even a few days)
 
FWIW hunter was on all formula by 5mths, 90th percentile for weight and height and still didnt reach a 4hr EASY til 6mths.

kirry

[shivi]

hugs Vick,

In all honesty, I would not even try to do a 4 hr easy if you're still getting 2 or more night feeds in....I would work on concentrating on dropping them first....

4 hr EASY in the book is more so for the baby who has STTN with a DF from 3mths or so (or even earlier of course) and as Sienna is still so little think of it as EASY by weight when Tracy says treat the baby acc to weight.

Mine were very long (58 and 59 cm born) but very thin for weight (3.395 and 3.5 dropping to 3kg) so they ate like little piggies till around 4 mths when they were on 90-97th for both weight and height and very proportionate and then the 4 hr EASY worked for both of them, both EBF till 6 mths, O self weaned at 16 mths and E is going strong at 14 right now.

In saying that, I don't think I would have even thought about 4 HR easy if they were still doing NFs - a baby doing NFs out of hunger has a smaller stomach capacity and would not benefit from a stretch during the day until its seen at night.....

BUT - I would go to all feeds in the dark without distractions etc, did it with both of mine from 3.5 or 4 mths, Oscar was once again able to feed in the daylight from around 9 mths but Emma kept the dark feeds till she dropped them herself.....daytime feeds i the dark definately saw mine taking in much more and going much longer btw feeds and even doing a kind of end of nap DF iykwim with Emma helped with major distraction....IMO lots of BF babies I know and have seen (the ones fed "on demand") don't make it to 4 hr easy at all and especially not at 4-5 mths due to the fact that mums think they are simply more efficient, faster eaters at this age but as they are just taking a nip and a sip here and there and not having proper feeds and are hungry at even the 2-2.5 hr mark during the day.

Hope this helps....

S x

[Vicku]

Thanks so much for the advice and opinions! I will keep it all in mind and experiment a bit and see what happens. Today was a whole day of 3.5 EASY, but last night was feeds every 2 hrs! Unsure if they are all out of hunger, or a beginning prop dependency Although during the day she doesn't feed to sleep so wouldn't expect that...
Short naps usually happen if at home in her own crib. If out and about in pram or car seat she can take really long naps, took a 2.5 hr nap today. That makes me think more a difficulty transitioning to next sleep cycle. Still feel you have a very good point Shiv about not stretching out day feeds if night feeds are still many.
I wonder if the EAEAS could work well for her? Definitely worth trying I think. I'm all ready to have less feeds at night and it could still work just as well as EASY as I wouldn't feed right before a nap... I think she naps better with more A time now as can sometimes wake after 30 min UT if not enough A time.

Ok, off we go to bed for our night... hoping tonight will be more sleep and less feeding
Interesting too Kirry about sleep cycles switching at 3/4 mo. I haven't actually heard that before.