NEEDS the CN...can't get there.

[inoella]

I'm starting to think that way too... Yesterday got a short a.m. nap and at first I thought OT cuz she had been up 1.5 hours the night before (when I crept in to turn on the heater in her room ---ugh) - but today since she woke up at 6:30 I had to keep her up 2 hours just to get some sort of day going! And now she's sleeping past the 1 hour mark. So NOW I'm thinking yesterday was UT!
I've heard of healthy sleep habits - must be some truth to it of both sleep analysts say so!  And like you said, worst that can happen is OT and we're getting that anyway, huh?
Keep me posted - I'd like to try it too but if she keeps waking up at 6:30 I'm not so sure... we'll see...

[nursemeg01]

ha we swung the other way. She woke for a feed at 5 am. I think I'm going to have to do gentle wean there because she always wakes up about that time, takes a full feed and back to sleep. Except now that we started solids, she's not too hungry for the 7 am feed. this morning, she fell back asleep and I overslept. I got her out of bed at 8! She had been up for some time though. I can't believe I'm going to have to set an alarm for myself...sad.

She wasn't too hungry and I put her down at 10:30. I didn't count the crib time at all and she slept for 1.5 hours. Now I'm not sure how the rest of the day is going to go, but it really looks like all of this was UT. I'm going to set my alarm tomorrow and start putting her down at the set times. If it doesn't work, I'll go back to the other ways. I feel at this point, what do I have to lose?

[inoella]

OK - I'll start tom. too - we'll see how it goes. 

[muddyfeet]

Go for it, ladies!  Good napping to you...

[inoella]

First attempt was awful..I don't think I can do this. I gave her 10+ min to resettle on her own until she started coughing - she's sleeping on her tummy now and seems to wake up coughing... not sure if it's related to the reflux or is that normal?  then I tried shh/pat but she was screaming and going hoarse! when she started cough/choking after 20 min. I quit -- her nose was running and she still sounds hoarse... is it supposed to get this bad? she woke up at 6:30 and I put her down at 8:50 - out in 5 min. but only a 45 min. nap... already OT? Yesterday I put her down exactly at 2 hrs A and got a 2 hr. nap... (but that was 8:15 - 10:15 a.m. - so early!)

[nursemeg01]

whew. I would think the coughing might be due to reflux. my DD's reflux is worse when she is on her tummy---which is probably why she doesn't sleep on it. In fact, she hasn't rolled for back to tummy yet!

So today I pushed her A time to almost 2.5 hours. She slept for 2 hours and I had to wake her up. I'm going to try to do the same thing for the afternoon nap. I think you need to increase the A time. My DD started to get fussy at 2 hours but I just picked her up and played quietly for the remaining 20 minutes. Then at the 10 minute mark I started our WD process. To me, all signs point to UT. How long was she up that you go the 45 min nap?

[muddyfeet]

Ionella--

agree with the previous post, your LO may still be UT. Also consider this:

There's a point in a baby's development where you start to leave the shh/pat and go to pickup/putdown. The shh/pat can actually make them more upset when they get to a certain age. Can't remember what that is, but I'll look and post when I find it.

If your LO has reflux issues, if you shh/pat in the middle of her back, you may be patting her esophagus, which may already be irritated from the reflux. Two possibilities come to mind, both from other threads I investigated when I was having napping issues with mine.

One is a different sort of shh/pat technique, which isn't a middle-of-the-back pat, it's more of a nudge. You put your hand on her upturned bottom and just gently an d rhythmically rock her. I'm trying to find the thread for you, and will post it if I do.

The other is she may be ready to transition to the PU/PD technique, which has it's own message board on this forum.

Hang in there, at least give it a couple days.

For me, today, our naps are terrible. We're both sick, our noses streaming, our ears are plugged, and I'm feeling rather hopeless myself. These things pass, but then I worry about getting us back on track now that the whole routine has been destroyed by illness. Augh!!! It's always something.

[muddyfeet]

Ionella--

Couldn't find the thread with the alternate shh/pat on it, but did find several places where it says shh/pat works well for babies under 3 months because they can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time. So sh/pat distracts them from trying to stay awake.

Older babies can concentrate on multiple things, so then shh/pat becomes just that much more stimulation. PU/PD comes in then as a way of "outstubborning" them. It convinces them that you will help them in their distress, you're not going away, but you're not going to solve their problem for them. I highly recommend the PU/PD message boards at this point.

[nursemeg01]

Inoella,

Why don't you post your EASY too and we'll see if something jumps out at us. I agree with muddyfeet. I quit doing shh/pat (I never did pat anyways) because it was too OS. I also read on another post about something called WI/WO where you walk in and say a phrase to them like 'baby it's sleepy time' and then walk out. to me it seemed like CC but it was on this board so maybe it's not. I'll try to find that link...

I wonder if something is going on for her to resist naps today---runny nose, hoarse, cough? Does she have a cold? Is she teething?

[inoella]

OK ladies - I appreciate you! I just have no confidence right now... I'll post the past 2 days...

3/25
A 6:15  (didn't pick up until 6:30)
E 7 (not much - maybe 3 min.)
S 8:15
A 10:15
E 11:30 (only 3 oz bottle - out for lunch - I guess she was too distracted)
S 12:50 (car - on the way home)
A 1:30
E 3 (about 5 min.)
S 3:55ish  (put down at 3:30 - babbled the whole time...)
A 4:30
E 5:30 3 oz (I know that's soon - but she gets FRANTIC in the evenings and sometimes I think it's cuz she needs to poop - which she did... sorry if TMI!  )
E 6:30 6 oz
S 7:30  lots of trouble falling asleep....
A/E 11:30 - I don't DF and she doesn't usually wake up...

Today
A 6:30 (pick up 6;45)
E 7 (3 min)
E 8 a little oatmeal and applesauce - just about a tablespoon - I usually give her a little bit of oatmeal with EBM in the a.m.
S 8:55
A 9:40 -- left in crib until fussy/9:55, did pu/pd until 10:20 - she was screaming and hoarse and coughing... yuk...
E 10:50 (about 4 min)
S I put her down at 11:30, kept crying out until 11:50 but when I peeked in her eyes were closed...
A 12:15
E 1:30 (5 min - again - kept fussing to eat and then pooped... and then very happy!  )
S 1:55
A 2:30 seemed so tired still...
E 4 (10 min! what is up with this day?)
S 4:25 (not sure when she actually fell asleep - again some crying out...)
A 5:05
E a little sweat potatoe with rice cereal and EBM
E 6:45 (bottle after bath)
It's not 7:15 and she won't finish her bottle and is super fussy for DH - I'm wondering if her reflux is acting up again? She's been spitting up ALLLL day and just more fussy than usual. Maybe it's the solids? But they're not new... I've been giving her a little here and there for 3 weeks now... She's been "fake teething" since 4 months - always chewing furiously on fingers but nothing to show for it... I'm at a loss ladies - hope you can see something... let me know if I should post on EASY - I know it's not nearly the 4 hr. schedule  - today was the worst in a while tho...

[nursemeg01]

I'm actually going to say teething here. She's not really eating well, fussy, and the symptoms of runny nose, etc. I bet she's been 'fake teething' like you said but she's real close here. I'm thinking in the next few days you are going to see the tooth through the surface.

Looking at this, I think her first nap she was UT. and then you tried to compensate for that for the 2nd nap but I bet she was still ok from having a full night's sleep which is why she settled eventually a little over 2 hours. I bet she wants a 2.5 hours A time. And towards the end of the day, the OT monster gets her because of the 45 min naps. I would really try to extend the A time tomorrow. Of course if she continues to eat poorly and has the symptoms of teething, I'd try a teether and even some Tylenol to get her through this...and not stress too much about the schedule until those teeth pop through.

If you look in her mouth do you see anything? A ridge or a clear line? That's usually the sign that the tooth is close to popping out and then it all gets better. I can't really say for sure as I think our teething battle is just starting...

hang in there, I know it's been a tough day but at least your DD can fall asleep independently and you aren't teaching her to do that NOW! a lot of my friends haven't even thought about sleep training and their LO's are sleeping in swings at 8 months!

HTh---meg

[muddyfeet]

I think nursemeg is right about the teething. It can mess everything up. Especially if your LO salivates a lot when teething and has reflux, I think the swallowed saliva and post-nasal drip upsets the stomach, making the reflux worse.

The relief after pooping is interesting. Doesn't really fit anything unless she has a history of gassiness too. Has she been known to be constipated?

Also, another question I had is what is your LO's temperament? Also agree with the A time extension. You almost made 2.5 hrs A this morning, but you still got a short nap. If she's touchy or grumpy, though, no amount of scheduling is going to help her sleep through teething, I think. Which would mean you'd have to just do your best during teething cycles.

I would also suggest that you post this over to the EASY board, because it's more than a catnap problem, and we may pick up some more useful information on that board.

[nursemeg01]

I agree...and I was going to tell you one other thing that I have tried the past few days.I posted it on the EASY forum and they told me they didn't see a problem with it so hopefully it won't mess things up too bad. So what I've been doing is letting her sleep later---this postpones the whole day so that she doesn't end up OT because she isn't taking a catnap. Here's been our past few days:

Wake 5 AM--feed back to sleep
Wake 7:45
E/A: including solids until 10
S: 10-12:30
E/A: 12:30-2:45
S: 2:45-4 (sometimes 4:30 if I'm lucky)
E: 4/4:30
A: 4-5:30
solids 5:30
bath: 6
BF: 6:30
read until bedtime at 7:15

so she's usually up for around 3 hours at the end of the day but it was better than the 4 hours I was getting. I'm hoping that as her A time increases to 3 hours, I can just move up the wake-up time to 7. don't know if it will work but thought I'd share it.

[muddyfeet]

This looks really good. It's working?

[nursemeg01]

Yes it is. Amazingly. Today we had to go out and get a new washer/dryer so our 2nd nap is messed up. She only did 45 min in the stroller. I'm going to try to put her down for a 3rd nap now and then we'll get back on track tomorrow! It was scary pushing the A times, but it really seemed to work out!...good luck!