Desperate for sleep help!! 8 month old and night wakes

[babyfinn]

we have a white noise machine (air purifier for his allergies) in his room, AND one outside his door in the hallway - but he is a very light sleeper, even when I went in to do the 10pm dreamfeed, he woke up when I turned his doorknob and I was being careful!
I am going to make my husband have his lunch ready the night before from now on to avoid the cupboard door noises int he morning (cause apparently closing them quietly is too hard to remember :rollseyes:

we are definitely getting closer to him being used to not being fed all the time at least, and I noticed his 4am feed is getting less of a feed and more for comfort - the 6am feed is usually more of a real feed now... and I don`t mind if I have to keep the 6am feed since I am woken up by hubby at that time too!

[brenda2]

sounds like progress.  i was scared to do sleep training too because even though i was feeding at every wake i was only up for 5-10 min and then back to sleep. but it's way better once they're sttn.  totally worth the few nights of hours sitting there while they scream.  it'll be better for everyone.

[babyfinn]

OK, so it's 2am and we are getting less sleep than ever! I don;t know how much longer both of us can keep this up - he is getting so little sleep at night now, it makes it impossible to get him to stay awake during the day without being miserable.

I forgot to type out yesterdays, but it was something close ot this

7;30 eat and bed
9:45 - wake and feed
11:00 - wake - shh/pat in room - cried till 1:30-ish
3:50 wake and feed
5am wake - shh/pat and stayed in room - cried till 6:30
7;30 wake and feed
9am wake for the day

tonights is

6:30 eat and bed - there was no way we could get him to stay up any longer, he's so tired
7:30 wake - husband went in to sit in the room and shh/pat - cried till 9:00
10pm dreamfeed
10:45 wake - I have been in there since then doing shh/pat - finally fell asleep at 2am


Tonights plan was to get rid of the 4am feed but since he has had so little sleep, I don;t know if I should anymore - I don;t think either of us can deal with many more hours of lost sleep!

How many more days of this much crying? I'm all for trying to get him to learn to go to sleep without comfort nursing, but my happy baby is now unhappy all day long. We have rarely ever had a problem with naps and now he is so ovettired all the time, we end up doing shh/pat for every single one for a good chunk of time before he finally falls asleep, and he isn't staying asleep for more than 45 mins anymore.

[anna*]

How long have you been trying to break this prop? Of course you can go back to nursing to sleep any time you like, but it may make it more difficult to wean the next time...

[babyfinn]

last night was night 4 of this attempt, so I know it's still early, but it's only getting worse!

So he woke again right after I typed that -

2:30 wake, cried till 3am with pu/pd - he was content with P/u but not with p/d, he just kept trying to snuggle his head in my neck to go to sleep.

4am - wake and I fed him
6:15 wake and I fed him again
6:45 wake - shh/pat for 30 mins
7:30 wake and we let him wake for the day, but now he is ready for a nap after being awake for an hour...

[anna*]

OK well: how about introducing a paci to help him if he needs to comfort suck? I know it is quite late to introduce one but if he still has a strong need to suck it may help him, plus he should be about old enough now to find and replace it when he wakes?

With the PUPD, how long are you holding him for? You really need to try to settle him in his crib as much as possible, only pick up when he is REALLY upset and even then hold him for only a few seconds. Don't hold him til he is calm. There is also a sleep regression around 8-9 months so you may be contending with that too.

[brenda2]

With the PUPD, how long are you holding him for? You really need to try to settle him in his crib as much as possible, only pick up when he is REALLY upset and even then hold him for only a few seconds.

agree.  you may be holding him too long.

when we sleep trained my lo we really did not see progress with how many times she woke at night until i stopped all night feeds and she got the picture that i was not going to feed her at night.  and i really let her fuss, did not go in at all unless she was truly crying and then i only comforted in the crib, did not pick up (but picking up just made it worse for her, she would fight me so much i had a hard time not dropping her)

how long are you keeping him up during the day before you try for a nap?  if he is not getting much sleep his A times will be short and if he fights you for a nap and then only does 45 min are you trying to get him back to sleep when he wakes early?  would he sleep in the stroller/carrier?  may be time for some APOP for naps so he can catch up on naps and not be so ot.  ot will definitely make nws worse.

[anna*]

Agree with Brenda, I'd be inclined to cut out all night feedings at this point. It can be confusing to them if you sometimes feed and sometimes don't.

[babyfinn]

He takes a paci, and has since birth - we keep 8 or so in the crib at all time so he can always find one.
When I do pu/pd, I hold him for...maybe 10 seconds? just long enough to have him take a breath fromt he screaming and get his soother in his mouth again - but last night he was so tired, he would immediately calm down and attempt to sleep on my chest when I picked him up, so I had to cut it even shorter - but really it's just a way to get him to relax for a second and get him sucking on the soother, shh/pat isn;t working so well while he fails around in his crib

Right now he has had 3 naps already today - so he woke for the day at 7:30
8:15 - 9:00 nap - woke crying and tried to shh/pat but he just treid to climb the rails of his crib the whole time to get out
so 9-10:45 A time, we had a few errands to run before we had guests coming from out of town today
10;45 was really tired and attempted a nap, but after 30 mins of shh/pat, and standing at the doorway we decided to take him for a drive to get him to sleep, he was too overtired at this point
11-12 nap
12-2 A time
2:00 showoing signs of needing to sleep again, so put him down, 10 mins of fussing and is now sleeping

I will likely have to give him a 4th nap this afternoon now too.

I am not against cutting out the feeds, but I can't have him crying the entire night, each day that passes, the more overtired he gets, and soon we are going to have him up all night and asleep all day!

Is there any other alternative? We are basically doing sleepeasy at this point since I spend most of the crying time sitting at the doorway, and we did that program for 3-4 months with no long term success either. There comes a point where listening to your baby cry isn't seeming worth it. So far the shortest crying time has been 30 mins, and that was only once!

[anna*]

I think you need to give this at least a full week, maybe even two, before deciding if it's going to work or not. It's not like he's 3 or 4 months where you would expect to see results really quickly. And I definitely do think you need to try and stretch that first A time a bit. 45 mins is a pretty classic UT nap, even if he's TOTALLY overtired, 1hr15mins is just way, way too little for his age. Is there any other AP you can do with him to get a longer nap, ie have him sleep next to you?

The BW techniques for sleep are essentially shush-pat and PUPD for this age, with WIWO added when they are older. If you feel like this is really not for you then you could try looking at Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution. Remember that staying with him while he cries is NOT like controlled crying or CIO, because you are there with him, reassuring him with your presence (even if it does not feel like he is being reassured) and trying to help him to settle.

I have one more question about the soother, can he definitely find and replace it for himself? He doesn't need you to do it for him?

I'll be interested to hear what Brenda thinks.

[babyfinn]

Today hsi A times are super short, but he only got about 4 hours of sleep last night in total - so no surprise! Usually he goes 2.5-3 hours before a nap, and they are usually 1.5 hours long, but we seem to be in a vicious cycle of overtired right now with such little night sleep - even when he was waking to nurse all night, he still was only awake for mins at a time and was in bed for 13+ hours, so he's not adjusting well to not getting that length of sleep.

100% sure he puts the paci in by himself - we watch him on the monitor and if there isnt one right by his face, he does arm sweeps till he hits on - we use the soothie brand and it makes it really easy for him to insert. I only put it in his mouth when I am in there in hopes to get him to comfort suck on it and calm him down, but often he is too worked up to do it.


I guess my biggest concern right nwo is how little sleep he is getting, I know it wont be forever, but his eyes are red contantly, and he's just not himself anymore... here's hoping tonight goes better. i can commit to a full week for sure, 2 if we can get a bit more sleep than we did last night!

[brenda2]

i agree with anna...try to have strength and stick it out and be consistent.  sounds like hell...

also agree that A times today are way too short but sounds like you know that and are going on cues.  but even if he is ot he usually gives you long naps and right now he is doing all short naps so i think you do need to keep him up a little longer than you did today.  hopefully he'll do at least one long nap for you and then get a bit caught up on sleep.

what are you doing when you sit in the doorway of the room?

are you going to cut out feeds tonight?

[babyfinn]

Ok, so bedtime was totally messed up as we had to take him to the walk-in to see what was going on - he started tugging his ears and crying and hasn;t wanted to eat much all day.. so after 3 hours of a wait, we were told it is just irritation/inflammation from his extended crying times and were told to give motrin or tylenol for a few days. So now I don't know what to do and I feel guilty

When I sit int he doorway I generally wait till he is crying low enough to actually hear me and Shh him and say sleepy sleepy time, which is the cue we use every time he goes to his crib. Or I will say, "Shh, it's OK, sleepy sleepy time" sorta thing, never when he is dead quiet for fear he actually fell asleep, but when he isn;t in his hysterics cause I would have to yell to be heard.

I had planned to cut feeds and my husband was going to try to deal with wakes all night, but I don;t know if I hsould let him cry for as long as he did last night now, but also don't want to feel like we did it all for nothing either...bah, i guess I will have to make the decision based on how it goes.. if I decide to feed I will likely just abandon it for now and retry again in a few weeks to see if we have less resistance then. He was up for 7 hours before bed as we couldnt get him to go to sleep this afternoon for his nap, then my husband tried driving him around while I waited in line at the clinic and that didnt put him out either - so we are either going to have him so tired he doesnt have the energy to wake tonight or he is so overtired, he will give us a run for our money... fingers crossed for option 1!

[brenda2]

the waiting in the doorway and not saying anything while he screams blue murder just feels too much like cio to me, especially since you are saying it is for extended periods of time.  it obviously isn't working as he is having a hard time calming down.  i think you need to do a little more intervention.  maybe standing beside the crib where he can see you and have a hand on his back or something, you don't have to pick him up, then when he calms a little bit you can move away from him and stand/sit by the door and talk to him.  waiting there when he is calmer and can hear you repeating your phrase i think is fine.  he can hear you, he knows you are there.  i would just be uncomfortable with being away from him when he can't hear you for so long while he is so upset, even though you are in the room, it's not really helping him as he is basically left alone to calm down himself and he is having trouble doing this. 

i know you say he calms down better when you're not in there but this really is more like cio and less like BW the way you are doing it.  if he is truly crying hard i think you need to go to him and make your presence felt more than just sitting in the doorway.

hugs.

sorry it is so hard.  good luck tonight.

[babyfinn]

Thanks for the advice Brenda

Unfortunately we are going to take a break for now, until his ears and throat get better and I recover - I fell down and almost passed out while holding him and knew there was no way i could go another night of hours of crying. I am trying to stay positive that the past 4 nights weren't a waste - at least I know what really didn;t work for us and hopefully when we are all recovered from this round, we will have more success and less resistance.