Brown/wholemeal foods to be avoided

[MLK]

I've come to realise where the white carbs fit in - they are cheap meal stretchers. Just pure calories/energy. Protein foods are more nutritious but much more expensive and/or take a long time to produce. Very hard to "feed the masses" on those. Not hard to realise why the world's population exploded after agriculture was introduced compared with hunter gatherer lifestyles ! Would Asia have its population without rice?

But in a lot of ways the white carbs are a form of "nutrient rationing". If you can get all the nutrients you need while including white carbs, fine, but otherwise?

[deb]

"PS Deb - with fiber the recommended amount for toddlers is 14g per 1000cal and for adults about 18g per 1000 cal per day. So I am not saying that they do not need fiber. But there is a difference in a high fiber diet and getting your RDA of dietary fiber."

Frankly, I trust those RDA numbers about as far as I can throw them. In the States, the RDA's are created by the folks who let us use artificial red food coloring because it's "safe" and refuse to consider labelling GMO food. But that's another thread for another time.

Lan makes a good point about white carbs being "filler," pretty much. I have to admit, bread holds the PBJ's together a lot better - but since we began to make more of an effort to eat less of the filler and more real food, we've all been healthier overall. It's easy to go overboard in pretty much any dietary direction, really; in the end, we can just do the best we can with the info we have available.

[Mashi]

Out of curiosity then do you think those numbers are too high or too low for fiber? I did not get them from an American source, they are from the Canadian Heart Foundation.

[deb]

I have no idea if they're too high or low. I just don't trust the FDA in general. Here in the States, those RDA numbers are held up on pedestals.

[MLK]

I recall reading some studies on hunter gatherer diets and fibre ranged from very high (eg cassava/taro/yam based diets) to almost nil (eg Inuit). So there's a wide range of fibre intake that humans can tolerate and still be healthy. In fact I think that's the reason for humans populating almost all parts of the planet - the ability to adapt to a wide range of diets and climates.

[deb]

Another thing to consider: I can read the label on the bread or pasta or whatever packages and see how much fiber is in there, but if I'm already at the "limit," I'm not going to go online and find out how much fiber is in, say, a plate of carrot sticks, or a bowl of lettuce to make sure I don't go over. I'm gonna feed my kid the carrot sticks and/or lettuce, and probably stick with the whole-grain bread/pasta. The carrots and the lettuce have nutrients that the bread just doesn't have, or have in the quantity or quality that the whole FOOD (meaning the straight-up fruits and veggies with fiber) does.

I don't think most people give or eat all the day's fiber in one sitting, either; spaced out throughout the day it makes a difference.

[mmom]

Well, we were never specifically told to not use whole grains either. It's just something I learned from reading about toddler nutrition. I think it is great that your LO is not a picky eater - FWIW mine was not until about 18 months...prior to that the first time I gave him a biscuit he took one bite and shook his head and said no, and ate peas instead!!!

Don't get me wrong Mashi - he is still picky!!  But he doesn't realize that the foods he is choosing are still not normal toddler foods.  KWIM?

You are so good at reading up on all of this stuff.  I read up on making baby food and that was the end of it I guess.  Beyond that I was just trying to make sure my toddler gets nutritious foods.  

[Mashi]

Another thing to consider: I can read the label on the bread or pasta or whatever packages and see how much fiber is in there, but if I'm already at the "limit," I'm not going to go online and find out how much fiber is in, say, a plate of carrot sticks, or a bowl of lettuce to make sure I don't go over. Cheesy I'm gonna feed my kid the carrot sticks and/or lettuce, and probably stick with the whole-grain bread/pasta.

Yes but Deb, in all fairness your children are not toddlers!!!!!  The guideline of limiting whole grains is for babies and toddlers, not for school aged children. And for adults afaik there is not a "limit" - the RDAs are not usually "no more than x amount of" except for sodium and sugar, fats, etc.  Things that are good for you they tell you a minimum amount.  So there is not a reason to check a label and say I am at the "limit" for fiber, as it is not something to limit in children and adults. I have also never seen a "maximum" amount of fiber for babies and toddlers, just that it's not good to be filling them up with "bulk" which high fiber foods are, as then they are not hungry enough to get the rest of what they need in.

I think that what is important in this discussion is that we are not talking the general adult and child population but babies new to grains and toddlers who need lots of other things in their diets.  A toddler does not have the same nutritional requirements as a 30 year old or even a 7 year old.  To compare, no one would say that the regular adult population needs to drink whole fat milk. Most people would say the opposite in fact - we all need to be mindful of saturated fat in our diets and why would you drink whole milk when you can drink fat free skim milk - cutting that whole intake of saturated fat out of your diet. But because babies and toddlers need more fat than children and adults most people follow the guidelines that children drink whole fat milk until the age of appx 3years.  So by saying that babies need to drink whole fat milk because they need the fat is not the same as saying that saturated fat is needed in everyone's diet and we should all be on whole milk.  The fiber recommendations are along the same line - that babies and toddlers need space in their tummies for fats and if they are filling up on bulky fibrous foods they are not going to get in the other things that they need.  It's not saying that whole grains are bad or whole grains are not good for other people. Just that you should be mindful of the amounts in babies and toddlers.

[deb]

True that - good thing I went thru this baby and toddler thing twice first before they got to be girls.

I've always considered filling up on pasta or rice or bread (regardless of age) to be pretty much worse than feeding them a reasonable amount of whole grains. I know that's not what we're talking about here, necessarily, but "The Guidelines" don't really draw a line or differentiate between the two, which is why I've never really bothered with them.

And there is actually a significant school of thought that supports saturated animal fats in the diets of adults. I only use whole milk to make yogurt for the whole family, not skim or reduced-fat, and we cook lots of foods in coconut oil and have done since Nat was a baby (which is when I learned about the stuff).

[Khalam's Mama]

I think we also need to remember that a big issue is the wholegrain options limiting the absorption of essential minerals and the impact of this is something we just can't see on a day to day basis so saying so and so eats brown and seems fine is not really enough. Lack of minerals is something you wont know until it is specifically tested or it is too late so if you know brown is going to put children at risk of this surely it is better to err on the side of caution than regret it when mineral deficiencies cause problems in later years.

As someone who is very health consious and works in the health profession I find it hard to go against what I know about adult nutrition like low fat etc, but we have to remember babies are not just small adults they are physiologically different and as such have different requirements. 

[deb]

So true that babies' nutritional needs aren't the same as those of toddlers, vs children, vs adults. That said, there's still a lot of disagreement on the subject, and if I have to pick between giving white rice/bread/pasta or doing without them entirely to avoid the brown, I'd probably go without them completely and rely on non-flour items if it were that big a deal.

By soaking the grains you can eliminate the hard-to-absorb phytate problem (the phytates being what blocks the mineral absorption), so that becomes a non-issue, so you can get the fiber (in whatever quantities you're comfortable giving, even if small), the minerals and vitamins, and the carbs without the sugar spike from the refined starches, and avoid the whole white-brown issue pretty much entirely.

As an aside, are you giving your LO a multivitamin supplement? Does it contain minerals as well?

[Khalam's Mama]

The soaking of grains can reduce the level of phytate but most grains (esp. oats and brown rice) don't contain enough of the phytase enzyme to eliminate it and unless the soaking is done when the grains are freshly ground it is even less effective as time goes on so while soaking is recommended for adults the mineral absorption is still an issue for children even after soaking.
We do give multivitamins containing a and d as recommended and these also contain minerals but supplimental minerals are less easily absorbed. Also while brown versions of things contain more minerals that is not the same as more minerals being absorbed and so feeding them does not necessarily mean children will benefit from these extra nutrients.

[firsttimemummy]

Whole grains *can* be harder for people, not just babies, to digest and get full nutrition from.

Do you know how this would show in a child? Starting to think DS is reacting to wheat as still getting raw bottom where the poo has been on his skin and looseish bowel movements (although better now eliminated cows milk, carrots, oranges, soya milk) - still trying to figure out what the cause is.  DS does eat lots of bits of our toast etc and it is wholegrain. At least we are seeing the dietician a week on Friday so hopefully she may be able to offer help too.

[MLK]

Here's a way to soak brown rice to reduce phytic acid levels to a minimum:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/04/new-way-to-soak-brown-rice.html

I think it would work for other whole grains too.

Sure you don't want to bulk them up so they can eat other foods - but you also dont want to fill them up on empty calories either. obviously a diet based mainly on white bread/rice is not going to be nutritionally sound.

I totally disagree with the low fat theory and I think a lot of studies showing sat fat causes heart disease were confounded by trans fats. We all drink whole milk in this house. I reckon in 10 years' time the sat fat/ heart disease link will be discredited.

See here for an example:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.27725v1

[deb]

Whole grains *can* be harder for people, not just babies, to digest and get full nutrition from.

Do you know how this would show in a child? Starting to think DS is reacting to wheat as still getting raw bottom where the poo has been on his skin and looseish bowel movements (although better now eliminated cows milk, carrots, oranges, soya milk) - still trying to figure out what the cause is.  DS does eat lots of bits of our toast etc and it is wholegrain. At least we are seeing the dietician a week on Friday so hopefully she may be able to offer help too.

It's not out of the question that this could be a reaction to the wheat itself, which would happen if it's brown or white. Given the evidence you can always ask about maybe a gluten intolerance. Eggs are another common allergen. Is there any other reaction, like a skin rash, or just on the bottom? That might give you more info for the dietician.

Oh, and Lan, thanks for reminding me that I have barley and sunflower seeds I set to soak yesterday - that's breakfast this morning! I never thought to reserve the water, for some reason!