EW due to OT or UT? 7 mo....

[empowered mama]

Thanks ladies....another EW this morning, boo.

Chris - I've not yet heard about putting LOs to bed at 7; what I read in the book was 7:30, so I thought this was okay?

I've tried cutting his 2nd A time, but it only gets us a short nap (and some days we need a long one).  On days where he takes a long first nap, I end up waking him at 45 min for the 2nd nap so as to not go over 3 hrs nap time.  Do I just need to stick with 2 naps of 1.5 each?  Yet even on the days where we do 2 -1.5 naps, we still get EWs so not sure if it is a nap issue...

I also can't imagine him going through 2-1 yet either....I'm not ready for that can of worms to open!

The NWs and EWs vary every night.  Sometimes 3:30, sometimes 4:30, and sometimes no NWs at all until an EW of say 5:30.  He is averaging only 10 hrs night sleep right now which I know is not enough (usually gets 11-11.5).  Occasionally I can get him back to sleep by picking him up or singing a song.  But often for 4:30 - 5:45 EWs I feed in hopes that he will go back to sleep, but often he is up for the day. 

He is definitely an independent sleeper and has no trouble getting to sleep on his own.

Please tell me this will be over soon.  It's been over a month and I'm just so frustrated and can't figure where we are going wrong???

TIA...

[kikoz]

Hi EM,

I would really try not to extend his days longer than 7:00 pm. try it, you have nothing to loose, what do you think?

If your A times are giving you good naps than i ll stick to them, but my advice also is to let him sleep as much as he wants on these naps. I know I have adviced otherwise before BUT once I have actually tried it, I have found that cutting los naps was the worst thing I did for her, and as soon as I did it, we started having NWs! !!!
so I stopped it and let her sleep as long as she wanted. The NWs are gone again for us and the EWs are 50/50 resolved.

when she is having 2 good long naps and a decent BT between 630 and 7pm we are then getting a normal wake up time, between 6 and 630. but when ONE nap is busted,eaning short, we are back to the EWs between 5 and 530!

AND, the trick is, the day she wakes up at 5:30 , I  NEVER let her sleep before 9am. This also helped us alot in keeping our days stretched out. when your lo wakes before 6am I would urge you to keep him in his cot with zero stimulation unless he cries out. This is the only way he ll be able to last till 9am for his 1st nap.

i m not sure what everyday brings us... but some days are better than others and for now I m going along with this...

you are very close... big hugs

HTH

[empowered mama]

Thanks for the encouragement Chris....I appreciate your thoughts

So, do you ever let your LO go longer than 3 hrs naps in a day?  There have been days when DS seemed to want more nap time, but I woke him thinking that it would cut into the night sleep.  Is this not true for you?

I can give the early BT a shot - I'm just nervous that it will bring the EW even earlier, yk?  But I guess it can't hurt - we aren't making progress with things the way they are...

I never let DS nap before 9 because his first A is 3h30min and he usually doesn't wake before 5:30 so thankfully we have that going for us. 

I so don't want to give up, but I feel like we are running out of options.  I will take your suggestions and see what this brings us - and praying for a miracle!

Glad to know we aren't alone in this and I hope the EWs leave you too - (((big hugs)))  Will stay posted...

[Jiinx]

still reading along...

Is he still feeling ill?

How did his night go when you cut his nap?

[empowered mama]

Hey there - still inching along here.  I don't think DS is feeling ill anymore - doesn't cry in pain or have any symptoms so we are back to tweaking.  I've been studying these boards all day, and I've come up with a theory:

Since DS is doing A times that would compare to a 10/11 month child, I started reading about 2-1 and what that could look like.  I began realizing that many babies at that age are doing an average of 3-3.5 A times.  This got me thinking not so much about his perfect A time, but what his cumulative A time in a day is.  It looks like babies in the 10 month range can average about 9-10 hrs total day A time (of course with a shorter nap).  BUT, it made me think about DS's total A times and how they are really high.  His first 2 As are 3.5 each which is already 7 hrs.  So I'm thinking that we really need to scale back on the last A as to not go over 10 hrs daily A time.  I'm starting to believe (I think) that EWs are OT.

I have a friend with a LO just one week older than mine and her DS is doing a first A of 3hrs, 2nd A of 2.5 hrs, and 3rd A of 4hrs and he sleeps 12 hrs straight at night (a baby with very similar sleep struggles as us).  This seemed strange but it dawned on me that perhaps it isn't so much the exact A time as it is how much they get in a day.

What do you think?  Is this crazy?

Not sure when we can test this out, as I believe DS is in a bit of an OT rut and it may take some time to get out.  Dear lord, I hope we don't wake before 5 tomorrow....

[Jiinx]

EM..*hugs* You're really doing a diligent job. I know EWs are a big pain, and I completely emphasize - really. I just wanted to say that it will work out..you sound so worried!

It's an interesting way of looking at it. It's definitely worth a shot. I always think that putting a lo to bed UT is way way better than OT.

For example today:
Wake up: 7 am
E: 7:45
A:7-10:25
S:10:25-11:40
E:11:55
E:3:15
A:11:55-3:40
S:about 40-45 mins..not sure what she did
E:6:30
A:a little less than 3 hours

It's such a range at each age. She's not incredibly tired when I put her to sleep, but she'll go to sleep.

On days when he's STTN, do you remember how much sleep he got? does the amount of sleep he gets during the day make a difference to his nights?

[kikoz]

Hi, leting my lo nap as long as she wanted was the best thing i did for her really... she never napped longer than 2 hrs... but then I just started doing that, as I was always cuting them... so we ll see.
Yes, your As are quite long for your los age. As I said, if sometimes the naps are good and some days are very short for the same A times, for us it always meant OT and A needed to be cut.
Also by puting your lo to bed at 7, it will naturally cut on his As
I always noticed that when I changed one factor in the day equation, I needed at least 3 days to stick to it to see if it s actually making a better or worse change

dont worry about OT, I think they can be undone once you let him sleep for his naps ( at least temporarily, if yo u dont feel comfortable doing it or if you feel that its started cutting through his nights) and put him to bed earlier for now

just my 2 cents...

[empowered mama]

I know...some days I feel a little crazy, but more than anything I just want to understand the cause of EW.  I feel so incoherent at that hour of the day, and just want a predictable routine for once yk?

I'm pretty certain his average night sleep should be around 11-11.5 hrs.  On and off lately, he is getting sometimes under 10.  I have entertained the thought of decreasing his naps a titch to see if that affects nights.  I guess I just thought since he just turned 8 months, that he is too young for such little nap sleep no?

So today - I've tested out the theory of 3.5 A, 3.5 A, and 3h A.  Got 2 decent naps of 1h30 and 1h15, but interestingly just had a brief NW 35 min after BT.  OT somewhere?  Our day was a little less than 13 hrs long.

We'll see what the rest of the night brings - thanks for your thoughts as always 

[kikoz]

Hi EM
I thinking decreasing the naps is not a good idea, u already have OT in the air and this will not help.
As for the brief NW, I won't wory abt it since it was brief... Sometimes their little body is just adjusting...
 Hope u had a gd nite X

[empowered mama]

oh dear....not a very good night here.  DS had several NWs before 12, then EW at 5:50 which put him at 9.5 hrs night sleep.  Woke rubbing his eyes and seems tired/fussy.  I really have no idea where to tweak - maybe I should just keep trying this for a few days to see if things adjust?

[Jiinx]

oh dear...poor little guy.

Was the day before good on the naps? And he's not teething, correct?

[All4Love]

EM - I found what you said about total A time really intersting so I looked back at my log and saw that on my LOs 2 best days of his life (last week!) he slept 2.5 hours during the day and his total A time was 10.5 hours.

I am trying to replicate that today...but he had 3h10min sleep and 10 hours of A. He went to sleep like a charm...we shall see what happens o/n!

[empowered mama]

yes, the day before we had a 1hr nap and a 1h20 nap - not too bad, but also had a 4 hr last A time - maybe a cause for OT? 

Today we started the day at 5:50, had 2 great naps, and a short last A time of 3 hours.  He seemed done with the day so I put him to bed.  Hopefully there won't be remnants of OT from lack of sleep last night.

I don't believe he is teething in the sense that it is bringing him pain/discomfort.  Last week I could certainly tell when he was bothered and lately he is just happy as a clam for the most part.  His wakings don't remind me of the pain-type wakings either...

All4Love - I really hope your LO gives you some more fabulous sleep.  Hopefully we'll be right behind you!  Can I ask you how you solved your EW issue?

Thanks sarah....will let you know how tonight goes...

[kikoz]

Dear EM, ill b away for a bit and may not be able to follow up with u closely.
But the girls r giving u great advice here.
Hope the EWs n NWs will get better.
I feel OT is in the air for u, our EWs were solved by leting my baby sleep as much as she wanted for her naps and puting to bed at 7pm latest...
big hugs for u and ur lo X

[empowered mama]

hello again,

last night was odd - no early NWs, but at 12:30 he woke crying pretty hard and it was 1h10min before we were able to get him settled again.  He was almost inconsolable - I tried holding, walking, singing, feeding.  A few times he would sleep for 10 min and then be back up again crying.  We gave him pain meds just in case, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

Then the EW came at 5:45 when I BF him in hopes of him going back to sleep.  About 45min to an hour later he went back down for another hour or so and started the day at 7:45.  This still only put him at 10 hrs night sleep.

I know this is a crazy thought, but is it possible he may be ready for 2-1?  His A times are so high and our days are 13-13.5 hrs long.  Some days with the EW he will go back to sleep (with a lot of APOP help) and other days he is ready for the day.  I just don't know what other logical reason there might be?