17wo in OT/UT cycle?...please please help

[lchuynh]

Some advise please as I am not sure how to tackle this. Apologies up front for the long post.

DS is 17 wo and at 14.5 weeks we did pu/pd to get rid of his paci addiction. That was when he learnt independent sleep, and that was also when nap extensions stopped working with shush/pat. I put him in his cot wide awake, place my hand on his chest/give a few pats, say some reassuring words and then leave. He will fall asleep within 5 minutes (I have a video monitor), sometimes doing some mantra crying. If it escalates I go in and place my hand on his chest/give a few pats, say some reassuring words and then leave again. I am very proud of him, and myself for this huge achievement! Its been one very long and rough road to this point.

For a period of about 2 weeks he did one 1.5 hour nap per day, and his other 2 naps were between 45mins-1hr. I was jumping for joy - finally he was getting decent naps, and able to transition himself! I was tweaking A times and it was working. But now sadly the 3 nap day (what luxury) is back to being a 5 nap day again. For the last week I just can't seem to get a long nap from him. I am in a cycle of OT/UT. What I don't understand is that he doesn't seem capable of making it through his already shortened A times, but always wakes up from his naps smiling so regardless of what I do I cannot extend. I've even been there to transition him through but once his eyes open he is awake.

We are getting NW too. Also his 4 hr EASY is getting a bit messy b/c he doesn't eat much when his E is due and gets hungry 1 or 2 hrs later.

Here is our EASY for the last 3 days:

27 April
A 6:22 woke up but was dozing so left him until he called me at 6:49
E 7:49 105ml EBF (tried feeding earlier but refused to eat)
A 1h58, in cot @ 8:14
S 8:20-8:48
A 50min, in cot @ 9:22. He was fussing and grizzly
S 9:38-10:37 tried extending for 20 mins
E 11:00 135ml EBF
A 1h22, into cot 11:56. Rubbing eyes and jerky movements
S 11:59-12:49
E 15:10 90ml EBF
A 3h, out in buggy running errands, but he would not sleep
S 15:49-16:25 in cot as soon as we got home
A 37min, He was fussing and grizzly so put him to bed, cried hard so fed
E 16:40 90ml EBF, hungry cry so had to feed him
S 17:02-17:14
A 1h06, bath, massage, bedtime routine
E 17:20 50ml EBF top up before bed
S 18:20
E 20:45 90ml woke but couldn't settle, hungry cry. Usually would last to DF
A 21:49 10min NW

28 April
A 00:32 30 min NW offered bottle only took 10ml
E 02:13 110ml EBF
E 04:37 50ml EBF I wouldn't usually feed but he was wide awake babbling
A 05:53 woke up, did not want feed
A 1h56, into cot 7:40, was fussing and grizzly
S 07:49-8:20
A 1h06, into cot 9:19 as he was fussing lots
S 09:26-10:06
E 10:30 150ml EBF
A 1h45, 15-20 mins in bedroom singing songs, in bed @ 10:41 (1h35)
S 11:51-12:27
A 1h02, into cot 12:53 as he was fussing lots
S 13:29-14:20 ~11 pu/pd 26 mins total to settle
E 14:40 125ml EBF
A 2h, in cot @ 15:22
S 16:20-16:30
A 4h04 (did not count prev 10 mins), bath, massage, bedtime routine
E 17:50 155ml EBF before bed
S 18:24
A 20:52 6 min NW
E 22:49 110ml EBF

29 April
A 01:10 10min NW
E 02:21 100ml EBF
A 04:38 10min NW
A 05:18 woke up
E 06:02 100ml EBF
A 2h18, in cot @ 7:30
S 07:36-08:08
A 1h11, into cot 9:08 grizzling. Screaming tryng to suck duvet to sleep. Patted chest until asleep
S 09:19-09:53
E 10:10 95ml EBF
A 1h33, into cot 11:20
S 11:26-12:03
E 12:35 40ml EBF Hunger cry, fed to tie him over until next feed.
A 1h05, into cot 12:50 as he was fussing a lot
S 13:08-

He is currently having his 4th nap so far *groan*.

Does anything jump out at you? I can't figure this out at all and feel so dejected after having worked so hard for months. Please help.

Thank you in anticipation.
Lien.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Just marking my spot and will be back to see yesterday's EASY. We had a really tough time at this age, too.  It will get better.

[lchuynh]

cont. EASY from yesterday:

S 13:08-15:51 cried when he woke up after 40 mins so pu/pd 5 mins. Pat chest for rest of his fitful nap.
E 16:05 160ml
A 2h19, bath, massage, bedtime routine   
E 17:50 65ml top up before bed   
S 18:10-20:00
A 20:00 33mins pu/pd and him screaming. Realized he was hungry.
E 20:33 165ml
E 23:21   100ml   

30 April
E 02:45 110ml   
A 06:22 woke up
E 06:30 80ml
A 1h45, in cot @ 8:02
S 08:07-08:30
A 1h33, in cot @ 8:45 as he was fussing lots
S 10:03-10:53
E 11:27 155ml
A 1h56, in cot @ 12:44 protesting
S 12:49-

He is currently having his 3rd nap. I am staying with him for this one to hopefully extend.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Phew!  You're really having a time of it, aren't you?  Big hugs!!!  I've been there and it's so frustrating and hard.

Is there any APOPing that works with him?  One thing you might think about doing at this point is just taking a couple of days as a vacation from BW.  APOP and let him sleep on you, rock him, etc if he needs to to try to get some long naps so he can catch up.  I think he's deep into this OT hole and this may be the way to hit the reset button. 

Once you get him out of this I think it might be time to stretch the A's but I think it's going to be hard to do that at the moment.

What do you think?

[Deenee]

My baby is 12 wks old and having the same issue. I feel like we're constantly playing catch up. I've had no success with extending as she wakes up happy. I'm sorry I don't have any advice but can offer sympathy, we only got three naps today and it wasn't pleasant. This 45 minute nap is driving me crazy and I have one tired girl. Hope someone has some ideas that can help!!

[lchuynh]

I'm happy to APOP, only problem is that I think I may have taught him too well how to do the independent sleep thing    APOP works to get him off to sleep but doesn't keep him asleep - he used to be able to sleep for ages in sling, buggy, car, co-sleeping, swing...but now only 30 mins using those devices.

BTW his 3rd nap was 34 mins, and now he is currently having his 4th nap, this time I am holding him. Perhaps this APOP style will work...so far so good - 57 mins and counting...

You are right, I probably need a vacation from BW as much as he does. I've been at it since he was 7 wo and up until we did pu/pd at 14.5 weeks I spent all day every day in his room doing shush/pat.

OK, for the next 2 days I'm curling up with a book (or my laptop  ) and holding him for his naps.

I'll come back for routine tweak after our BW vacation.  Thanks a bunch.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Ugh.  It just ate my post!!

Anyhow, I was just saying that I'm glad you'll get some snuggle time in.  Hopefully that will get you both some rest and will help you to not be frustrated by the whole thing.  I've totally been there!

My DS also is 'too good' at independent sleeping!  I actually have a post on that around here somewhere.   But it is good in the end, even if it's hard when you want to be out and about at naptime.  And it's also good b/c if your DS is a good indenpendent sleeper then he won't unlearn that with a couple of days of catchup APOP, you know?  You'll get him right back once he's not so OT.

Enjoy the snuggles and let me know how I can help when you're back.

[lchuynh]

Well, what a 3 day BW vacation it has been. I've had a meltdown  (this happens from time to time when I've been up and down and not even getting 2 solid hours of sleep), and I've learnt something about my son...he REALLY has a hard time between sleep cycles and transitioning, even with APOP! When I've held him for his naps he slept soundly through the first cycle, and when he stirred I rocked. His whole body would tense up and he would open his eyes, so I added swaying and bouncing to get his eyes closed. This would go on for 10-15 mins before his body would go semi limp and he is back asleep, but is very restlesss and tenses up a lot (even after 20 mins).  It's like he doesn't go back into a deep sleep again. What's more, it didn't work for every nap, but 2 out of 3 naps ain't bad for each day.

On Saturday night after two 2h (almost) naps and a 55 min nap we still had 5 NW. I didn't have the energy for pu/pd for the post midnight wakings so fed him back to sleep (his milk intake has been low so I also assumed he was hungry, but he didn't take much milk). I usually try to settle him with a hand on his chest and reassuring words first before pu/pd.

Yesterday he had 2 longish naps (1h15 & 1h30) and 2 catnaps, and last night he woke 3 times but managed to self settle within 3-5 minutes without any intervension from me. He did wake up at 5:30am and I fed him hoping he would go back to sleep. I guess I can't consider it an EW since he had 10h46 nightime sleep (I don't subtract NW unless they are significant). It's so hard to stop him waking early though (when it's still dark that's early to me), b/c regardless of whether his bedtime is 18:00 or 19:00 he starts waking around 4-4:30am, then usually would go back to sleep for another hour and that's about it. Is it worth me doing pu/pd to get another hour from him (I leave him in his cot babbling until he wants out, usually 20 mins)?

I APOPed today too, and he's had two 2h naps and a 30 min nap in the middle of the day that I wasn't able to get him back to sleep. I'm hoping tonight I get some sleep (although I'm now suffering from a bit of insomnia *grgh*, and didn't sleep a wink last night).

What do I do about tomorrow? Is my BW vacation over? What A times should I be aiming for?

Many thanks.
Lien.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Ugh, not much of a vacation from anything it seems!  Hopefully he did catch up on some OT, though. 

Did you notice any trend in the A times during your 'vacation'?  If not I would try going on sleepy cues tomorrow. I would shoot for around 2 hours if he doesn't give you many cues.

What do you think?

[lchuynh]

I've been aiming for 1h45-2h A times, and I get 30 min naps. He starts fussing followed soon after by jerky movements around 1h-1h15 A and I've stretched him to 1h30, but again 30 min naps. This is the problem - he is waking at that 30 min mark regardless, and it is so hard to get him back to sleep.

Do I just do 2h A times regardless for next couple of days?

Thanks very much for your advise thus far.
Lien.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Lien, let's keep our chat in one thread so we can follow what's going on, ok?  I just replied on the GS board so I'll go back over there and we can chat A times. 

For anyone else who is interested/has advice for Lien, see here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=170283.msg1912634#msg1912634

Thanks!