7 mo old with 6 - 7 NWs every night. Getting desperate for help

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Sim, how wonderful that you only had 1 NW! That's amazing. Hopefully this new method will keep working for you, and as your DS learns to put himself to sleep more and more, one day you won't even need to lay your hand on his chest. He'll just do it himself. Cross fingers.

Just had a major pupd battle with DS, on this end, mainly because his day started today at 4:45 AM (wide, wide awake and wouldn't go back down), and so by the time bedtime came along, he was seriously OT and OS. But, couldn't get him down any earlier, just because we had our regular family routine going... have to cook, put food on the table, etc, etc. Anyway, after 1 hour and pupd 50 times, he finally stopped fighting me and put himself to sleep in his crib. Whenever he started to arch his back and wrestle in my arms, had to pd immediately just because I don't want any of that. Pu when he cried and talked to him. Pd as soon as his cry went down to a whimper or when he fought me tooth and nail. I tried to just do pd only but some nights like tonight, when he's OT, pd only doesn't work.  I did have to keep my hands on him, like you. But, even though it was a tough battle, glad that he did NOT fall asleep on me and finally decided to stay still enough in his crib to go to sleep in the crib. . .I wanted HIM to do the work, kwim? (Although, I think I did a lot of work myself! lol!)

Also talked with my ped today. He seems to think the major culprit with my sleeping issues might actually be these hives that DS gets nearly everyday or sometimes every two days, especially since his problems sttn is so sporadic and unpredictable. So have an appt next week to probably start him on meds for the hives, and we'll be able to rule out that as being a medical reason if his sleeping doesn't improve while he's on meds. As for the reflux, I agree, it shouldn't come back, right? We never had him on meds, although it was highly recommended for us, mostly because DH is so against meds.  He doesn't want our kids to be "drugged". Took me forever to convince him to vaccinate our kids. He's still not sure about putting him on meds for the hives. But I think he's so sleep deprived that he might be willing to concede for a short trial period.

Sleepy sand to everybody!!

[sim75]

Geez.. 50 times. That's impressive  That has to be some record! Well Im glad he finally went off for you. Also glad you got somewhere with the ped. If you/DH are against meds, have you thought about or explored the homeopathic route? I have actually just been to a naturopath this morning (for me) and was talking about DS who was doing a lot of back arching when trying to give him his bottle. She said that camomilla is the best remedy. I actually already use this for him as I have some teething crystals containing this from the uk (Nelsons) and they are great. But she mentioned specifically for the arching - and when they don't seem to know what they want. Anyway, for hives there are several options, it depends on the actual symptoms:

http://www.herbs2000.com/disorders/hives.htmn   (scroll down to homeopathy section)

As for the reflux meds, I tried everything else and resorted to the meds in the end which were our saving grace. And we know it when a dose has been missed (DH has been known to forget in the morning!!!) I hope to be able to drop these meds soon though.. just want to make sure he is settled enough with his sleep and teething so that I can separate that disruption from any possible existing reflux disruption without the meds.

[sim75]

Just wondering how things have been for you guys the past few days?

We were still down to 1 NW, AND he decided he didnt want his DF the night before last so skipped it. Still only 1 NW. So last night we didnt prepare it and went to bed. Oh dear.... multiple NWs! By 3am I figured he must be hungry so I bf him back to sleep. OH MY!!! But it was a case of APOP    (He hasnt had a night feed since he was in a growth spurt at 16wks so I figured it cant create a bad habit... right?)

So today, Ive tweaked his routine a little more in terms of his feeds. Trying to get more milk packed in the day (specifically the afternoon), so that we can drop this df and hopefully have no NWs.

The extension of his A time to 3hrs, like Lewa suggested, has been a success though.  So we are progressing...

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Sim, that's amazing that you went from multiple NWs down to 1 NW so quickly with just a few tweaks to your routine and a new settling technique. I am so happy for you! As to your night feed, sometimes offering a feed is the only way you can really find out in hindsight if your DS was waking hungry or not. So, no, I don't think you can create a habit after one night. 

On my end, things are... weird... Still getting 5-7 NWs every night. Everyday he has broken out in hives. Now, I just realized he's allergic to sunscreen, too. Had sunscreen on the past 3 days because it's been so sunny here, and sure enough, red bumps everywhere his skin was exposed and I had on sunscreen. He looked like he had a farmer's tan full of hives. I was like, well, isn't that just great!  I don't know if these allergies and skin sensitivities have anything to do with his NWs but I have an appt with my paed this Friday, so we'll see.

He's also decided that he wants 3:45 AM to be his official wake-up time.  Yesterday, he was up from 3:45AM  - 6:30 and went down for a nice 2 hour nap at 6:30, of course. So he was definitely OT yesterday by the time bedtime came around. I wish I can get a handle on what's going on. But, knowing this little guy, he'll probably sttn tonight, as he seems to go back and forth every three days or so.

I did have to have a BIG talk with DH about being consistent with me. He has a tendency to "cheat" the BW methods by rocking to sleep instead of rocking only for wind-down and do pupd to sleep or to lay DS down drowsy but AWAKE. But, DH always fights me with BW. He was the same with DD, and then when sh/pt started working with her, all of a sudden he was totally on board. I have a feeling I have to somehow remind him, again, that BW techniques DO work, if we are both consistent. The good thing is, DS still seems to be able to put himself to sleep for naps. Just not doing it at night.

[sim75]

The hives must be really pants for him  They itch, right? Id bet the allergies and skin probs are what's is keeping him up in the night. Think about it yourself, when you've been sunburnt or had an itchy rash or something on your skin did you wake in the night with discomfort? Our skin is the biggest organ in our body afterall. And we do all our healing in the night when we sleep so maybe that's why his day sleeps are ok but the night ones arent - his skin could be healing itself or doing some readjustment. Allergies are pants. I hope the sunscreen rash has settled down now. My poor friend's son is a year older than mine and since early on she has dealt with all sorts of allergies with him and it's been tough work. So much trial and error to find out the causes. Hopefully your paed can help, or refer you on to a skin specialist for him maybe.  Poor little man.

We had a slight regression last night with the NWs. I followed someones advice yesterday to do what I wanted (which was to get to the baby/mothers group on time as opposed to making only the last 20mins of it due to DS's nap) and what a disaster that was! He slept 5 mins instead of his usual 2hrs as wouldnt sleep in the buggy at the park (I hadnt expected him to but she said I might be pleasantly surprised...) and only caught up with a 40min nap later on (2hrs too late!) So last night he was clearly OT and woke several times.
As for the df... still working on dropping it. Down to 50ml at 930pm and he only took half of that tonight. So we shall see what fun tonight brings...

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Well, at least you know that the night regression probably have something to do with him being OT and really off his regular routine, right? Hopefully tonight will be a bit better, though. Although, you have to do something for yourself every once in a while, or at least go on outings when he's awake. If he's keeping to a 3-hr A time, you should have a good chunk of time to be out with your DS so you're not trapped inside? I know with both of mine, I have get snacks and bag packed the night before, so that as soon as DS is up from his nap, out we go to take advantage of the time he's awake so that we can be back for nap. Or, a lot of the times, if I know he's going to be out during nap time, I make sure I have my carrier with me so he can nap when he gets tired, kwim?

Good for you on working on dropping the df. I'm too scared to take that on. I feel like I have to get my head around these NWs before I even attempt that. But, I'm also not sure how to go about dropping df when he is bf. It was easier with DD because she never was interested much in df, and I just skipped it one day, and that was that. DS, on the other hand, always empties me completely for df, which kinda tells me that he still needs it? or is it habit? I know at around this time, we are supposed to work on dropping it, right? Or maybe I should just drop it now, while he's waking up at night anyway! lol! But then, I'll be wondering if he's hungry at night, etc. etc... maybe I should wait... would it be creating a totally bad habit if I wait another month?

Well, I don't know if it's just a coincidence, but yesterday was the first day in five days that DS had no hives. He also sttn and did a 9 hour stretch. So, maybe it is the skin sensitivity keeping him up. I just hope I'm not trying to blame it on something other than myself, though. But, I would feel aweful if he was bothered by the rashes and I didn't take notice of it or didn't act on it. But, I don't think it affects naps as much, just because naps are naturally short, kwim? He does suffer from 45 minute monster, regardless of how I tweak his A time, but usually I can extend naps with rock/pd.  But, that same sleep pattern translates to lots and lots of NWs at night, if 45 minute monster is visiting ALL night! But, very thankful he sttn last night.  He's also been IS more lately w/o rock. So, that might be something that helped him last night, too.  Who knows? Still a guessing game for me, at this point. 

[jennyandgraham]

Have you tried letting him sleep on his tummy?  Naughty suggestion but it did wonders for our LO. 

[sim75]

Past 6 months, when they can roll themselves, it's not so much of a risk to let them sleep on their tummy. So Ive let my DS do that if he chooses to. I did freak the first time I found him there and sat by him!! But as he can clearly turn his head it's ok. Now I leave him to it. So I agree with jennyandgraham, that may work for you Mika. I actually put DS on his side a lot too, always have, because of his reflux. Now he naturally sleeps like that most of the time.

Well done on the STTN!  It seems like there may be a connection if his hives had settled yesterday and then he sttn.

I just hope I'm not trying to blame it on something other than myself, though.

I think not! You are doing everything you can my dear. It can be so hard to play the guessing game until we find what's wrong.

Since pushing his A time out to 3hrs it's been a lot better to get out that bit longer. And yep, I too make sure I have everything organised to head straight out that door. Poor hubby hasnt quite mastered that yet on weekends and gets frustrated when he misses the window!

Well last night we had a good one too. DH heard him start to stir a few times (I didnt hear it!) so went in ahead of time and put his hand on him and he never woke up. He read the wake-to-sleep bit and had been wanting to try it but it's hard when they dont wake at the regular time every night. So he was kind of doing that I guess, only it was a few minutes before a wake up, not an hour. It seemed to work nevertheless and he only really woke up at 5am and went straight back to sleep with a dummy run and being put on his side. Then he slept in til 8am!!!!!!!!! Before DH left for work I made him go in and check on him, then he stirred. So that was on only a 25ml DF at 930pm.
Not sure how to tackle it with bf and the df. Tracy's suggestion of reducing the bf by 1oz is easier said than done cos you cant control how much they take on the boob! Especially if he is draining it. Tough one. I guess you just still bring it forward every 3 days - and do the cluster feeding in the afternoon/evening to fill him up. He may naturally take less then. I have found that DS has naturally wanted to take less of his DF since I was finally able to fill him up more in the afternoon.  Do you exclusively bf on the breast only? DS's df used to be ebm so it's always been in a bottle since the start. So despite moving on to ff for that feed about a month ago I still could have reduced it with the bottle.   One the one hand, I agree that getting the NWs sorted first might be better. Otherwise how would you know why he is waking? But then if it is his allergies causing the NWs then how long will that go on? Maybe you could just try the cluster feeding and bringing the df forward for the first 3 days and just see how it goes? I dont think you would be creating a bad habit if you waited another month but your DS is a little older than mine (who is 7mo on the 21st) so maybe the df could already be disrupting his sleep cycle? It's so hard to know! I guess more trial and error and see what happens.  It's all a guessing game sometimes isnt it!?

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Sim, it's amazing how far you've come since your first post. It's almost like you have a new set of tools at your disposal. I can't believe your DS slept in until 8:00 AM! Wow, that's an accomplishment. Way to go, mommy! 

And, I am also glad that w2s worked for you, too. I might have to do that when I decide to wean from df. I have a feeling that Ds will habitually wake around 10:30 for his df when I finally decide to drop it. So, I might have to go that route, myself. I was also thinking maybe what I need to do when I am ready to drop the df is to wean by taking him off breast before he finishes and compensate for that by cluster feeding. Believe it or not, he hasn't taken a bottle since he was 4 weeks old, not even with ebm. He definitely had nipple preference and after battling it with him with different bottles, I got fed up and stopped pumping. So, I have to find a creative way to drop df w/o using a bottle.

Well, I wish DS would sleep on tummy, actually. DD sleeps on her tummy with her butt sticking up in the air. She still does that, and she's two! Maybe tummy position would help, if he would only do it. He sleeps on his side, but when he accidentally flips onto his tummy, he arches his back, tries to get into crawling position and cries. So, he always starts on his side, then begins to roll all over the place and eventually ends up on his back.

DS had a 102 degree fever today, was a total crank, and noticed his upper teeth are about to break through. So, I'm bracing for a long night tonight. But, since teeth cutting through gums was obvious today, I did fill him up with some pain meds before he went down, so hopefully it will not be too bad tonight. Hoping for the best but preparing for a long night.

[sim75]

Well Ive come a long way with the sleep but now Im over in the Discipline and Socialisation forum getting help with separation anxiety!! Ahhh, one thing after another 
Im actually jealous that your DS's top teeth are coming through. I wish mine would to put an end to this round of grumpiness!! They have to be close. Not so jealous about the fever though  At least once they cut through he should be a lot happier though. And how cute!

My DS isnt a big fan of tummy time (he will never crawl at this rate!). He can roll perfectly well but when he rolls from his side to his tummy in his sleep and wakes up in that position he too gets very antsy, it's like he forgets how to roll back! Yet while he is asleep he sleeps really soundly on his tummy.

As you bring the DF forward by half an hour every 3 days that should stop him waking habitually for it at 1030pm. The only thing that might happen is if he doesnt take enough earlier on with the cluster feeding, and then is forced to take less later on, then he may wake sometime later in the night hungry. But by reducing the time he is allowed on the boob for the df may make him take more during the cluster feeds. I found that DS has slowly done this with the afternoon bottle that I reintroduced (not sure why we ever dropped it, it wasnt intentional!, but it was hard to reintroduce it!) Slowly Im getting him to take more of that feed too. Which lead him to naturally decrease his own intake of the df. So fingers crossed that works for your DS.

Hope youre not having a bad night tonight! Come on teeth!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Well, an update. Turns out the fever was not due to teeth, but that DS had an ear infection. Paed said that he must have had it for awhile now. Perhaps that's why he stopped sttn when I thought I was just making progress with the sleep. He must have caught this bug and I just now found out about it. So, he's on antibiotics now.   ;)Also, I've been keeping a diary of what I've been feeding DS and his hives. Paed is concerned because based on his food diary, there doesn't seem to be any direct pattern but that he is breaking out more than what is considered normal. We are hoping he is not allergic to oat or gluten or something that's in everything. He had to go get a full allergy panel done the other day and they took out 4 vials of blood for the panel. I couldn't believe how much they were taking from that little arm of his. He was crying so hard. It was aweful. Anyway, getting blood results back next week. In the meantime, he's on infant zantac for the hives, and he sttn since he started antihistamines. So, we'll see what happens with the sleep, once all the meds are done.

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Really quickly just wanted to share a link.

Father goes into Baby Crib.

It's a hilarious video of a dad who's daughter woke every 2 hours throughout the night and his desperate attempt to get her to sleep (although it backfired! gees, I wonder why! lol!). Happy Father's Day.

[Lewa]

Hope things get better soon with the allergies Mika.  It will be good to find out what is causing them, so fingers crossed for the blood test results.  Good work Sim, sounds like you are coming on!!

Just a note on dropping the DF - we've just gone through it and it was surprisingly easy!  DS would always empty a bottle of 220ml and would often wake up for it as well, so I was expecting a fight.  I reduced the qty and brought it earlier for about two weeks, and then just dropped it altogether.  For a couple of nights in a row he would half wake up and let out a cry or two around 10pm and then just go back to sleep.  I actually think keeping the DF was causing some of his NWs as he certainly ate enough during the day.  If your LO is still haivng NW, you might as well try to drop the DF as it may just do more good than harm

[sim75]

Really quickly just wanted to share a link.

Father goes into Baby Crib.

It's a hilarious video of a dad who's daughter woke every 2 hours throughout the night and his desperate attempt to get her to sleep (although it backfired! gees, I wonder why! lol!). Happy Father's Day.

Mika - dont laugh!!  I was that desperate that even I tried doing that a few weeks back after reading it in the BW!! Hubby came across it last night in fact and said "ha ha ha can you imagine getting IN to the cot!!!" I was so narky at him cos id done it and told him not to knock it til he tried it! But then we burst into laughter as our son's cot is quite small and he was in amazement at how I fit in there..or more to the point - didnt break it!! He asked if it could take the extra weight ok 

But that video was quite funny. I bailed way before he did! 

Poor little cherub with his ear infection  :'( How is he doing now he's on the antibiotics? And so sad they had to take all that blood from him. I dont know how you did it, let alone him. I would have been in bits with my boy having to go through that. Well I hope something can be identified from them at least.

That's good to know Lewa on the DF dropping. Well done! We are almost there. Ive found it harder to be able to reduce it though as we've been on 50ml for about 2 weeks as he had already dropped down to 150ml when I started to bring it forward. So Im going to speed it up a bit now so we are at 830pm for the next 2 days, then 8pm the next 2, then 730pm the final 2 which brings us to the weekend which is before we go away for a few weeks when Im sure everything will go out the window anyway!! But I figure its best to drop it before we go! He did sttn last night despite a brief wake up at 11pm just as we were going to bed. But not a peep until 630am after that. Rejoice!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Well, I don't know if it's the fact that his ear infection is clearing up or if the allergy meds are helping, but DS has been sttn 5 days straight now.  This morning, he woke up at 6:15 AM (yay! no 5:00 AM EW!) Still doing df but if he is turning the corner, I am going to start moving df forward. Will get blood work results the next few days to see if he still needs to continue his allergy meds. The next BIG thing... on Wednesday, we are flying to North Carolina with both babies. Hmmm... I wonder what THAT will do to his sleep habits! Cross fingers.