Bedtime battles - EASY tweak needed?

[malenka]

The last few weeks we've had some major bedtime battles. Last night it took 1.5 hours to get LO to sleep 

Here's how yesterday went:

8:00 A
11:00 S
12:15 A
3:30 S (tried from 3:00 as 1st nap was short, but no luck)
5:00 A
8:00-9:30 - bedtime battle, just couldn't get him down
10:30 DF (woke for it)
1:00 NW - inconsolable crying, gave meds thinking teething pain, really hard to settle
5:00 E
8:00 A

Some background:

We've dropped the CN and we're down to 2 naps. LO will be 8 months next week. He doesn't have a paci, he does have a lovey, he's never been left to CIO. Naps are no problem - see sleepy cues, bring him in his room, close the blinds, give him his lovey, turn on music and walk out. He's asleep within minutes.

With bedtime, he gets really hyper and flips onto his tummy and wants to crawl around. He's just learned to crawl - could the bedtime struggle be developmental? I give him lots of time to practice during the day. Eventually he gets OT and starts to cry. I go in to comfort him but he screams when I leave the room, but when I'm there, he gets wound up again instead of settling. Last night DH took him out of his room and spoke softly with him until he was drowsy, then brought him back to his crib and he fell asleep - after 1.5 hours of fighting sleep.

Where do we go from here? Does my EASY need tweaking? If this is developmental due to crawling, what do I do to fight OT?

[Tay]

Hiya, just seen your thread! Hopefully other mums have some ideas for you.
xxx

[Chicane]

Hi Malenka - sending you some hugs

It could be a developmental thing - crawling, teeth.

A questions - you have first E time of the day at 5am - does that means he is awake ready to go at 5am or does he go back to sleep until 8? If he is up then that means his day is way too long and his BT fighting could be OT. If he goes back to sleep and wakes again at 8 then I am wondering if he might be ready to stretch out his morning A time? You could try doing this in 5 or 10 min increments over a period of time and see if that helps.

A lot of people have dropped the DF at this point as it tends to disturb sleep rather then aid it. Does he always wake for it or only sometimes?

You haven't posted his E times...is he BF? Have you started solids? He may need to be tanked up with some calories before bed time to see him through. I think its ok if he has one night feed still at this age, others might disagree but some LOs just need that extra to get through. But I would definitely work towards dropping the DF. Are you able to get him back to sleep if he wakes for it without feeding?

Also have a look at the sample routines for his age at this link

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164030.0

Look at them all but the third one down is one with a 3hr 15 min A time - might help...

I am going to send some other eyes to look at your EASY to see if there is anything there that I cant see

sending massive hugs

x

[malenka]

Thanks for the help... we sure do need it these days

Ok, 5 was a NW for a feed and he went back to sleep until 8. He always wakes for the DF and won't settle unless I feed him. I have a thread going on the BF board about weaning night feeds. He is BF every 4 hours, but towards the end of the day I feed him every 3 hours to try to tank him up. He's on solids, but isn't taking too well to them. I offer 3 solid meals a day, but I'm lucky if he'll take 1 oz at a feed.

We're not having a good day so far today either. He was up at 8 this morning, but after not having slept much last night, he went down for his morning nap too early (A time: 2.5 hours) and only slept 45 minutes. I'm trying to settle him for his afternoon nap, but he won't go down and he's been up for 3.5 hours. I'm afraid tonight is going to be another bad night 

[*Liz*]

Sounds like he is being a monkey  ?

Might be a developmental blip with the crawling....

How long have you been using 3hrs A for and when did your LO drop the CN?

[malenka]

He's down - finally after 3 hrs 40 min of A time! Hopefully he'll do a decent nap.

He IS being a monkey! He's all over the house during the day, crawling from one room to another, getting into everything. I don't mind it, but I do need for him to sleep!!! He needs it too, he just doesn't seem to realize it

We've been doing 3 hrs A time for 3 weeks and we dropped the CN 2 weeks ago. Hmm, now that I've written that it does sound like he's ready for an increased A time, but how do I get there when he's so OT because he doesn't sleep at night? When should I try to put him down tonight?

[malenka]

Yikes! He only napped for 35 minutes and I couldn't extend the nap.

He was awake this morning at 8:00
Had a 45 min nap from 10:30-11:15
and a 35 minute nap from 2:55-3:30

What time do I put him to bed tonight?

[Tay]

I dont know what time zone you are so, here (in the hope it can be of some help): I would personally try to start settling him from 6pm, bath etc and then seeing how he goes, trying to put him down by 6.30pm/7pm.

[Chicane]

Hey Malenka

He's probably so excited about moving around and discovering new things that he thinks sleeping is for babies! Ha!
if you've got an OT LO and haven't been able to catch up by the end of the day then I would personally do an early BT to see if he can catch up. And then perhaps you could try to start extending A times. Start with the morning one and go slowly in increments. its possible that an adjustment during the day will help get you in a position where you can drop the DF. I wouldn't worry about the solids. Foods for fun until one. My LO is really slow in taking to solids too. Just take it easy and follow his lead. Ultimately I think its looking good, we just need to figure out the tweaking. Lets see where that takes you.

[malenka]

Ok, we did his last BF at 6:30 and tried to put him down right after that... it took until 9:00 pm. He alternated between crawling around, giggling, and babbling to full out screaming. The same thing happened as previous nights: I would go in to settle him when he was crying, he would get excited and want to play, and he would start screaming when I would leave. I tried not looking at him and just putting my hand on him talking quietly. I also tried sitting with my back to him, repeating his sleep phrase and slowly working my way out of the room. Nothing worked    It's getting worse... the first nights it took an hour, then 1.5, and last night over 2 hours to get him down 

I went in at 10 and tried W2S to avoid the DF and it worked. He woke up at 12:30 instead of 10:30 like usual. Since it had been 6 hrs since his last feed (and since he had burned a lot of energy crawling and crying) I fed him. He woke again at 5:30 and I only fed him for 6 minutes before putting him back down (I'm trying to reduce that feed so he feeds better during the day). He slept until 8:00.

So I'm going to try to extend his A time today. How far should I push it this morning? Most days (unless he's OT from a night like last night) he goes 3 hours. Should I push him to 3:15?

[*Liz*]

It is always best to extend A times by 15 mins every 3 days.

However that bedtime battle last night was OT so I would only push the A if you got a decent nights sleep in.

I do think this might be developmental with the new crawling though.

[Tay]

Oh! I feel so sorry for you having to do 3 hours sleeptime battle! ((hugs)) hope you have someone to share it with, it can be very stressful sometimes.

Just wanted to say that his night feedings do seem to be improving though, don't they? Major improvement with him not waking for the DF! Well done!  Did you also notice any changes in his daytime feeding?

[malenka]

He seems to be feeding well during the day, so that's good news.

His sleep issues have extended to the day now   I fully intended to put him down after 3:15 A time today, but he wouldn't. He only napped once today (1.5 hours), after 4 hours A time and he refused to nap this afternoon. We trying for an early bedtime tonight, but the bedtime battle is well underway. DH is trying to get him down.

Our EASY today (which was not easy at all):

5:30 E back to sleep
8:00 A
8:30 E solids
9:00 E BF
12:00 S (1.5 hours)
1:30 A
1:30 E BF
2:00 E solids
5:30 E BF
6:30 bath, pjs, bed...

We skipped his dinner solids tonight, in case they're giving him tummy trouble that might be affecting his sleep. I don't think it's the case, but it's worth a shot.

So he slept for 1.5 hours at 12:00, after having been awake since 8 am. It's now 7:30 and he's been awake since 1:30 this afternoon - we're going on 6 hours of A time  He's completely shattered, but wouldn't nap this afternoon (not even in the car) and there's no sign of him sleeping anytime soon.

Here's hoping tomorrow is a better day...

[Chicane]

Hi Malenka - sending hugs to you and LO and DH

Something occurred to me today...at this age many LOs experience another developmental leap that causes separation anxiety. Its very very common at this age. Have you seen any other signs of separation anxiety during the day - this could be another reason why he screams when you leave the room. Let me know if you see other signs of it and I can send you some info on how to deal with it.

In order to start extending A times you need to have a happy and rested babe. Liz suggests 15 min increments but perhaps that was to much considering the results you described...you could try starting at 5 or 10 min increments and see what happens.

I think you could continue to give the solids as they could be helping him to get through/sleep better. If your gut is telling you that its not tummy troubles and he doesn't get tummy troubles from day time solids then you are prob right.

I know you wanted to do an early BT (and thats what I recommended) but perhaps 6.30 was a bit too early. At our place when we get huge battles like that I stop, take him back into the living room, have a cuddle and a song and then try again 15-20 mins later. Sometimes they just need to snap out of it for a bit...worth a try next time. It also gives you a break from the battle.

He's completely shattered

Poor love and poor mum and dad. Sending you big hugs. Depending on what kind of night he has tonight this shatteredness could make tomorrow a bit OT. So, watch for signs, and go with his flow keeping things low key if necessary and if you are able.

It can take time for some LOs to adjust to routine changes...he's got a lot of other developmental stuff going on at the moment too. Hopefully all that will settle down soon and things will get back to normal (well, as normal as things can be with babies)

xxx

[*Liz*]

Chicane has given some great advice.

I did cut J's A times back when he first started crawling as he got tired so much faster - but didn't really show it as he was too busy. We went back from 3.5ish hrs to 3hrs.

Perhaps post on the sleep boards about the crawling issue? J was very easy with this as I just ignored him and he nodded off after 15 mins or so.

It does all sound like 'hyper tired' with his new milestone really  .