Support Please!!

[elephantintheroom]

Ok, so we are committed, and today we tried getting our baby (4 months) to nap in her crib in the nursery.  First time, I lulled her to near sleep, and while she was still awake, I put her in her crib.  The crying started.  I did pd/pu 27 times.  I was having a hard time telling mantra cry from "I need you" cry, but ultimately I tried to start patting and shh, and she did quiet!  I was so surprised and excited.  I had read not to rush things too quick, so I stayed and shh/pat for 10 minutes.  She slept for seven minutes, then woke.  I tried shh/pat and a paci (she is not big on this, but occasionally uses one).  She then stayed in her crib quiet for probably 5 mins.  Then she began a fussy cry, so we shh/pat for about 14 minutes, when the cry seemed to become more urgent.  We then started pu/pd, the whole process was about an hour and backed into eating time.  

Second time:  Lulled her to sleep, when drowsy, my husband put her in her crib.  She went right to sleep with shh/patt, and slept for 30 mins.  She opened her eyes, I did nothing.  She was quiet for one min, and then began fussy cry (I think mantra cry).  We shh/patted for 22 mins, and she fuss cried almost the whole time, then started a full-cry.  We pu/pd 21 times 'til the 30 min mark from when she woke.  

Here are my questions/needs...

Q1:  If she sleeps for ten minutes, do we start the 45 mins over?  still stop if she is not asleep at 45 mins?  

Q2:  Do you see how I could improve?

Q3:  After the second try when she slept for 30 min, did we intervene in the best way?  

Q4: Do we keep doing the same thing all day even if she does not get more than a 30 minute nap? My concern is that she is getting over tired.

Any encouragement is welcome!!  This is hard, but I want to be a good mom.
Thanks in advance.
Jennifer

[Chicane]

Hi Jennifer

Welcome to the boards!

I am sure one of the incredible amazing lovely PUPD mods will get to your post really soon but I saw it and had to answer as I have been where you are and know that you are probably desperate for some help...

First up I would say that 4 months is too little for PUPD. Its far too stimulating for them, my DS couldn't handle PUPD until well into his 5 month. I would stick with sh/pat. Sometimes it seems like there is no difference between shh/pat and PUPD and its takes a while to work it out. Read this info here as it might help

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=121330.0
and here
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69187.0
and here
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26671.0

PUPD is a tool we use when all our other tools have not worked.

It may take a while to learn your LOs mantra cry, don't worry, you will learn it.
You may also need to adjust your technique to suit you LO. For example, my DS hates sh/pat the way Tracy describes it. The shhh is too loud, the pat too hard the whole thing just too much for him. So we do a our own version of shh/pat which is soft humming or soft song and head stroking...you may need to follow your gut and intuition and do a bit of trial and error to find out what your LO responds to best.

Are you starting to use this technique in order to help your LO transition from sleeping somewhere else to sleeping in the cot? If so its going to take time for her to get used to it. It would be helpful to us if you can give us a bit more info about her sleeping habits, why you have started with this technique now and if you have used any other techniques in the past. Have you established a sleep time ritual/wind down routine? its important to establish a ritual so that you LO will begin to recognise the signs - oh, ok moms singing that song again, oh she's swaddling me now...that means I go to sleep soon...it will take a while for her to learn this but she will and it will make it all much easier for you both...

And finally - you are a good mom! You are the best mom for your little one! This is a process and you have chosen a method that means you are going to be by her side the whole way through it. You will find so much support and love on these boards so come back any time - there is no stupid questions! And there are lots of lovely parents here who have been where you are and have pearls of wisdom and masses of patience to help you through this. I've got to run now but i will follow you. hugs x

[elephantintheroom]

Chicane,
Thanks a million...here are some answers to your questions.  My LO has either napped in her craddle (vs. crib in her nursery) or in our arms (honestly, predominately in our arms).  We are trying to help her sleep in her crib and soothe herself.  Our sleep techniques before have been singing, swaying, swaddling, and white noise.  We use the same music each time, and she will sleep for long periods (1.5 - 2 hrs) in our arms, but not in the crib. 

So with only shh/pat (or our version), do we maintain this even if she is doing all out cry?  I think that we do keep the shh/pat going with the mantra cry.  Thanks again so much!!
Jennifer

[Chicane]

Hi Jennifer

Ok so the first thing i would do would be spend some time with her in the cot in the nursery while she is awake, play with her in the cot, put some of her favourite toys in there for short bursts during the day. The idea is you are getting her used to the space and creating positive associations with it.

In my personal experience I would continue to do shh/pat and soothing throughout the intense crying. I would start our sleep routine in the living room...time for nap now, bye bye living room see you after my nap...upstairs to the cloud bed now honey, here we are (prepare the room ie close curtains make it dark etc), I'm going to swaddle you now, lets have a cuddle, I'm going to lie you in the cot now...If my DS got worked up I would pick him up and sooth him in my arms until he was calm again. Tracy says that the wind down should be about 20 mins however when we were first starting out and struggling one of the mums here suggested it was too long for my little one and we realised that 10 mins was best for him. You will need to experiement with what works and adjust accordingly. I also found that if things got out of hand it helped to take LO out of the room for a few mins as it often will snap them out of a crying fit.

If you already recognise her mantra cry then personally I would stop the shh/pat and just stay near by. The mantra is her form of self soothing and you don't want to interrupt her process as it may disturb her...but once again you know her best and will have to decide what works and what doesn't.

Do you have a copy of Tracy's books? They come in handy to have in the house.

Also - you need to watch out for your LO tired signs and act quickly once you spot them.

It took me 10 days to have a break through, another 2 weeks to feel confident and another 2 weeks for my LO to get himself off to sleep without any tears at all so this could take some time she had 4 months to learn one way now she needs to learn another. Stick with it, remember to breath  and most of all remember to listen to your innate mamas wisdom.

x

[elephantintheroom]

Chicane,
Thank you so much for your support!  I am still trying to learn the mantra cry, but I think I have it figured out.  Good point about not doing shh/pat at that time.  I have the "How to Connect, Calm, & Communicate" book, but not the problem solving book.  The one I have has a chapter on solving "accidental parenting", but I am thinking I need the more thorough info in the other book.  I really appreciate your description.  I feel like we have seen good progress already, although I understand it might get worse before we are done.  The first time, it took some time to get her to sleep in her crib, but she slept for 7 mins, the next two times she went to sleep a little easier and slept for 30 minutes (on the dot!).  Today, she has increased the times she is sleeping, went back to sleep after a brief awakening, and went to sleep after only 3 minutes in the crib.  I am so relieved this is working.  I was so opposed to cry it out, but friends, family, and her doctor seemed to suggest that was the only real way.  I know we are not done and it will take consistency, but this proves that we can do it without cry it out and that we were underestimating our LO.  Thanks so much for your support and suggestions.  No longer doing pu/pd, has seemed useful. 

[Chicane]

I am so glad that you are feeling better about it. I know exactly where you are at as we were there too! Don't let other peoples opinions effect your own knowledge of your baby - no one knows her as well as you and you know what is right for her. I don't understand why people do CIO when there are other more gentle and loving ways to help our LOs. It makes no sense to me to let a baby cry alone like that! You don't need to do it that way. It took time and was hard work but we got our LO going to sleep on his own in his room with no tears, now nap time is a pleasure (dont talk to me about nights though!!) So, there is an alternative...and it sounds like you are doing great. keep in touch x

[elephantintheroom]

Chicane,
Thanks again.  We are still moving forward, but hitting bumps.  Today I was able to lay my LO down with minimal intervention, and she went right to sleep on her own.  She has increased the time she sleeps, but it seems that she is having a hard time getting through the first 30 minutes cycle.  Sometimes, that is ok with me because she wakes seeming refreshed and in a good mood.  The times that are troubling are the ones where I know she is still sleepy.  So, we tried just watching and seeing if she would go back to sleep, then we used shh/pat, and also tried something I read about doing shh/pat at 25 minutes to help her transition through the cycle...no luck of yet.  Well, that is not true, we helped her back to sleep once...but that is not consistent, and we would like her to be able to help herself back to sleep.  Thanks again for you support.  I am going to keep at it and try to educate myself about this situation.  Good luck on the nights!
Jennifer

[Chicane]

hi jennifer - not got much time but want to say it can take a while to get the method right so maybe you and Lo needs a little bit more time. Is she jolting herself awake at the 30 min mark? There is a method called Hold Through The Jots (HTTJ) which I have never used but can get someone to explain it to you. There is also a general rule which says waking happy from a short nap means she went to sleep under tired and waking grumpy from a short nap means she was over tired. If you like you can post up your typical day in an EAS format and I can have a look at it for you...you may jst need a little tweaking x

[elephantintheroom]

Chicane,
Thanks again. Sorry I am just now getting back to you.  We have been sick and had bad weather in my area.  On the bright side, it gave me more information to share.  I am really happy with the progress we have had in such a short time, and I do think that we need more time.  On the other hand, I want to make sure I am going in the right direction.  My LO is continuing to sleep well in her crib; however, she awakes at the 30 min mark.  She does seem to jolt awake. I have tried to just observe.  She will fall back asleep for a few minutes (about five) and then wake up.  She then starts to fuss and lately has been trying to roll over.  If she does roll over, she gets very upset.  My approach has been if she still seems sleepy to intervene.  Question 1). Should I intervene, if she is fussing/not fully crying?  She is doing a fuss/cry (mantra?).  After reading posts, I tried a modified version.  I hold my hand near (not on) her chest, to keep her from rolling over.  Then I have shielded her eyes (again not touching her face).  At times, I shh/pat, but I try not to talk.  She has went back to sleep like this twice and slept for another thirty minutes.  I just want to help her sleep the amount of time that she needs to for her well being and to help her learn how to go back to sleep.  I will try to include a sample schedule of ours with notes of what it is at its best and what it is at it worse.

I am in the process of quiting my job so I can be home with her more, but for now, I am away 20 hrs per week.  So, I will try to include the info to capture days when she is home with me and with her babysitter.

E:  5:00 am: wake up for the day. 
A:  5:30 - 6:30
S:  6:30 - 7:30 
E:  7:30: would prefer not to feed her this early, but I do because of BF/Work schedule.         
A:  8:00 - 9:00:  At this point she goes to her baby sitter. 
S:  9:00 - 9:30:  Typically only 30 min nap at this point (occasionally 1 hr).
A:  9:30 - 10:00
E & A:  10:00 - 11:00   
S:  11:00 - 11:45:  Usually 45 mins/sometimes 1 hour
A:  12:30 - 1:00:  This is where I pick her up and bring her home.
E:  1:00 - 1:30
A:  1:30 - 2:30  Sometimes, she goes right to sleep instead of A here.
S:  2:30 - 3:00:  To the minute, sometimes I can get her back to sleep
?:  3:00 - 3:30:  Shh/pat, etc, to help her back to sleep/sometimes get her up
S:  3:30 - 4:00:  or activity if not successful.
E:  4:00 - 4:30
A:  4:30 - 6:00 
S:  6:00 - 6:30
A:  6:30 - 7:00
E:  7:00 - 7:30:  Sometimes, she goes to sleep for the night here, if not...
A:  7:30 - 8:30
S:  8:30 - 10:00
E:  10:00:  She sleeps through this
S:  10:00 - 1:00 on a short night or 10:00 - 3:00 am on a long night
E:  1, 2, or 3:00
S:  Until 5:00 am.

Sorry for the long post.  I hope it makes sense.  Thank you so much for your help and support.  I am so thankful to find a board of like-minded people!  Thanks again.
Jennifer
 

[Chicane]

HI Jennifer - just a quick message to say i have to run out now but will take a close look at this later today...but overall sounds like you have made some really good progress! well done! x

[Chicane]

Ok here I am -

Are you feeling confident with your shh/pat method and understanding pupd? It sounds like you have made excellent progress and are continuing to develop your technique. Now that it looks like you are working more on routine then pupd I am going to move this thread to the EASY board so that we can get some more eyes and opinions and maybe help some other parents along the way..hope that's okay with you?

First up some general stuff about EASY. At this age you should generally be aiming for a 12 hour day more or less. That means if LO is up at 6.30am then she needs to be asleep by 6.30pm. The average awake time is around 1hr 45 min and 2 hrs. and day naps around 3-4 hours consisting of either two or three naps. Night sleep is around 11-13 hours. Its at this age that many LO start to transition from a 3hr feeding EASY to a 4 hour feeding EASY. You may find that your LO falls somewhere between for a while. (my very hungry boy is almost 8 months and still cant quite make it to 4 hours between feeds!) As far as night wakings - well some parents like to work towards STTN (sleeping through the night) its up to you and your LO. IMO though at this age I think a lot of LO still need the sustenance of a night feed to get them through till morning...its often just up to the individual baby and parent - but I think you need to tackle your settling methods and routine before you get into anything else. Do you know what type your LO is?

Check out some of the sample routines here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0

They will give you an idea of the scope at this age.

So back to what your routine looks like now. I would say that the 5am waking is actually a night waking and I would treat it as such. Be quiet, quick, no stimulation - see if she will feed and go back to sleep to wake up at a decent hour. Then start to aim your first A time to be between 1.45 and 2 hours. I would start slowly, watch out for her tired signs, it may take a few days for her to adjust to a new routine, you may have to do a bit of trial and error. Then gently try to get the rest of the day to match...ie heading towards consistent A times which will hopefully consolidate your naps, help with the daytime catnapping and get naps happening consistently and hopefully also help with her 30min wake ups.... once you are able to get into a more consistent routine for her age if these other problems still crop up you can deal with them from a much better foundation.

Remember that the routines posted are guidelines only, each baby is different and you may find you need to adjust accordingly, maybe she can't make it to 1 hr 45m A, maybe she needs to eat more frequently then every 3.5 hours?? Watch her signs, follow your instinct. And come back here to let us know how you're going!
x

[elephantintheroom]

Chicane,
Thanks again.  I am feeling more confident.  It if fine thatyou moved the thread.  Thanks also for the resources.  She does still seem to need to eat during the night, but I suspect I might be feeding her a little more than necessary.  I really appreciate all your help. 
Jennifer 

[Chicane]

you're more then welcome! thats what the boards are here for. I can't tell you how much love and support I've had from all the wonderful mums and dads here...they have helped me through some dark times! Pay it forward if you can - your own mama wisdom might just be the help another mama needs. Stay in touch xxx

[elephantintheroom]

I will definitely try.  We seem to have made it past the 30 minute hump with naps!  Each day seems to be better.  Thanks again.
Jennifer

[Chicane]

that pleases me no end. Well done!