OT? UT? Or....?????

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hi everyone....

We came back from a cross-country trip a couple of weeks ago and than had some teething madness so I was trying to wait out all this wonkiness to see if it was due to any of that but we're still in it, so here I am!  

The big issues I'm having are 10h nights and taking ages to get him to sleep.  I'm shh/patting nearly every sleep time like I had to back when we were first BWing!  Argh.  My gut says he's OT but I've been reading the 10/11 mo wonky sleep page over in Nap FAQs and I'm wondering if too much daytime sleep is really to blame.  He's only getting about 12.5/24h total, though, and that just can't be enough so I'm so nervous to cut. Even now I'm waking him at almost every naptime.  

Here's our basic EASY lately (an ideal plus some of the realities!  )...

6: A (leave him in the crib as long as possible)
7: BF
8:30: Breakfast
9:30/9:45: S (shoot for 9:30 but has been taking some time to get him down lately)
11/11:15: A (almost always have to wake him at 1.5h, sometimes he does wake himself around then)
11:45:Lunch
1:30: BF
2:15/2:30: S (sometimes this isn't until closer to 3 if he's fighting it)
3:30/3:45: A (again, wake him - at 1h15 so can be 4 or 4:15)
7:30ish: usually try for bedtime (do adjust this according to last nap, shoot for about 3h45 for last A but has been taking a lot of shh/patting to get him down)
8: reliably asleep
STTN until 6

This morning he did wake at 5 instead of 6.  10 min of shh/pat got him back down until 6:15.  

Ok, as I was just writing this I had to go back up to him.  It took 15 min of shh/pat to get him down by 2:30 and he was screaming at 3!  That's short, even for lately.  Another 10 min or so of shh/pat and he's back down.  We'll see for how long.  This must be OT, right?  But I don't want to perpetuate the EW by giving him more daytime sleep but if he keeps having 10h nights he's going to continue to be OT so I don't know how to tweak?

Prior to all of this he was a very good independent sleeper.  He'd go down on his own in 5 min for naps and bed.  Ahh, I miss those days!  

Would love any thoughts.

Thanks!  


ETA:  My 2nd trip up there resulted in 8 min of sleep.    DH is up there now but it doesn't sound like we're going to get much more out of him.  I guess it'll be an early BT tonight.  But   what's going on with this kid?

[Chicane]

Hi love - sending hugs...hmmm...just throwing this out there...do you think he might be ready already to transition to one nap a day? Also that first A time looks pretty short for a 10mtn old...my DS is 7 months and is doing 3 hrs 15 mins A time in the morning...I know it seems early days to transition to one nap...perhaps have a look over the sample EASYs here http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164031.0 might give you some idea/pointers. Also here is a link on wonky 10mnt old sleeps http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145285.0
I will try to have a closer look at you routine tomorrow when I (hopefully) have had more sleep.

[clazzat]

(((hugs)))

I'd say he's OT for sure.  His day is too long - if he is awake at 6am then you should be aiming to get him to bed at 6.30 rather than 7.30.

I think that it is too early for 1 nap, but I think it might be time to think about one short nap and one long nap - for us we had a short am/long pm combo (45 mins and 2h), although a lot of people prefer long am/short pm.

Is he generally high or low sleep needs?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

I agree that the day is too long.  I'm just not sure how to change it, you know?  So it sounds like cutting a nap is going to be it, huh?  I think I would prefer to keep the PM nap long, my issue is that when he does wake on his own, it's the PM nap that tends to be shorter.  So I'm more likely to get a longer AM nap.  I guess I can start cutting back on the PM nap, that would make for a shorter last A also and an earlier BT. 

I've wondered about his sleep needs for ages now!  Right when I think I know, he throws me for a loop.  I think in the end I've decided he's pretty average.

Chicane, I think he does best with increasing As across the day which is why I've kept the first one shorter.  It usually gets me a good AM nap so I'm hesitant to change it.  That said, he had a 4h A the other day since we had swim class and we didn't get a short nap so perhaps we could push it a little.

He didn't go back down for DH so he's getting a 6:30 bedtime tonight.  Hoping for a long night that will help reset some of this OT.

[Chicane]

Chicane, I think he does best with increasing As across the day which is why I've kept the first one shorter.  It usually gets me a good AM nap so I'm hesitant to change it.

Hi love - you know him best so that sounds like a good plan.

Perhaps a few early BT will help to break the OT cycle and get you to a better place to start adjusting?

Did the sample routine throw any light for you?

hugs x

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Thank, Chicane.  Hmm, yeah the 10 month samples are pretty all over the board.  I guess that's just what LOs are doing at this age!  But most of them did have one shorter nap so I'll try cutting back the 2nd nap today, I guess.

Our night was, well...interesting.   He went down with 20 min of shh/pat and was asleep at 6:45.  About an hour earlier than normal and didn't do the 30 min post-bed OT wakeup that he had been doing.  I was psyched!  He slept wonderfully until 3:45 when I heard him talking to himself.  He does that sometimes so I just let him be but at 3:55 I had to go in since he was screaming.  I was back in bed at 4:20, then he was screaming again at 4:40.  20 min more of shh/pat and he was down only to be screaming again at 5:45!  Argh.  I finally APOP'd him and got him to sleep in my arms until 6:45.  So a 12 hour night....sort of. 

So do I still wake him at 1.5h from his AM nap or do I let that nap go as long as he wants?  Then I figure I'll cut the PM nap to 1h and shorten A to bed.  Sound good?

[Chicane]

yeah that sounds good to me. I think cause he had a hard night he may need to catch up on some sleep in the am. Its so difficult to work it out isn't it? We are all over the place stretching A times so see if we can get longer naps and better nights and trying to stuff more food into him in the day and doesn't it sometimes feel like there is no method in our madness...just madness in the madness! x

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

I hear you on the madness in the madness! 

This really is when it's hardest, when I know he's OT but I also think he needs less daytime sleep.  It's such a fine balance!  Argh!

Hope things work themselves out for you soon, too!

[Tweakster]

Hi there Kate, this happened with us - Finn needed less day sleep but he wasn't able to handle the A times so we did a short AM/long PM and it went well for a time.  It might be time to try that with Austin. 

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Ah, you found me Wendy.

I'm fine to push through and try it but my only hesitation is that he seems to take a longer AM/shorter PM on his own?  So I'm worried if I cut back the AM that I'll still get a short PM and then we'll be way too low on daytime sleep?  Or is that silly?

Cut PM to 1h yesterday (AM of 1h20, woke on his own) and got a NW from 12-12:30 and a 5:50 wakeup (so 10h50 in bed minus the 30 min NW to 10h20 sleep ). 

1h30 this AM and 1h this PM, will do early BT again and hope for a longer night with no NW!  It was so nice when he started STTN finally a month ago but that lasted for oh....2 weeks!

[Tweakster]

Hi there Kate, I promise I am not stalking hehe  Wow what a great new shot of your boy, he looks like a little man there, and with all that hair!

It's not silly to be worried about cutting the AM nap, it seems counterintuitive I know :-)  But it's really your best bet when LO can't be guaranteed to do a PM nap or is just not transitioning well on long AM/short PM. 

It's all in getting the second A time right after a short nap and dependent on the first A time (they lose stamina if it is too long).

If it were me I would start slow so something like:
Awake 6
Nap 45 mins @ 9:30 - 10:15
Nap 2 hrs @ 1:15 - 3:15
Bedtime asleep by 6:30/7 - you need to gauge him here, see how he's handling less day sleep and more A time

If he fights the PM nap then he may need more A time after the 45 min nap. 

Just my 2c - but Finn is an anomaly anyway and we had to rush him to 1 nap so I only have experience with these low sleep needs monkeys :-)

I think I would prefer to keep the PM nap long, my issue is that when he does wake on his own, it's the PM nap that tends to be shorter.

This is why I think you need to cut the AM, he's getting too rested earlier in the day and the short PM nap is causing him to get a bit OT as his A times are longer in the rest of the day.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Oy, Wendy that's starting slow??  45 min in the AM?!?  Wow.  That is terrifying to me.     I don't mind your stalking one bit, you've helped me so much in the past!

Ok, so I see your point that he's getting too rested in the AM so that's messing with the rest of the day.  All right, ready to make a change!    Or at least tell the sitter to make a change tomorrow and let her deal with him!  Haha.  Maybe I'll try 1h in the AM and 1.5 in the PM at first.  Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks as usual!  

ps - Thanks about the new photo!  These days I'm glad he's so cute or I might send him back!  Haha! 

[Tweakster]

Sure start with 1 hr :-)  Or even 50 mins can work too if you find 1 hr is still too much.

It's all trial and error - for us we were on to 40 min naps by 10 mths but Finn was really good about giving me a longer PM so we got lucky there.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Ok, we'll go for that tomorrow.  Wish us luck.

BTW - Love Finn's hat in this shot!

[Chicane]

These days I'm glad he's so cute or I might send him back!

LOL - I know that one! I am going to sell ours.

Kikoz - things are looking up at our place but I am not going to get too excited about it or post about it for another few days because it could be a trick! But we are stretching out A times waaay out and it seems to be helping...will keep you posted x