Sleep training - is this a normal relapse or something else???

[beckygatt]

TBH I've been trying to play around with naps a bit to find the ideal combination so thhey are not 100% consistent. Somepeople have been suggesting shortening am nap to lengthen pm one, but she won't really nap more than 1.5hrs anyway. Yesterday A times were shorter as she'd had a bad night. They're usually 3.5hrs at least. Here is more or less what routine looks like. Problem is when she naps long am and pm they don't seem to fit into day and bedtime ends up being later. She also seems to cope with more A in the afternoon and evening than in the morning... This is what she'd do if I didn't wake up from naps;

7am - wake up
10.30-11.30/12 nap
3/3.30 nap (which ends up being too late if I let her  sleep more- than 30 mins)
7-7.30 bedtime (this is what I aim for but it all depends on the afternoon nap)

She never seems to be tired in the evening before 3.30-4hrs A but perhaps I'm just mis-reading signs. TBH she resists bedtime a bit whatever the time is.
I've also tried doing something like this;

7am wake up
10.30-11 nap
2 -3/3.30 nap (she'll often only rest 1 hr at this point :-/)


I'm at a bit of a loss with naps so I'm flitting between letting her nap long in the morning and trying to shorten it, depending on the day. I guess this isn't helping night times. What do you think? 

[LucySol]

i do think it might work better with a long and a short nap.i think that first routine looks gr8 but i would try and push that 2nd A time so after her shorter nap it isnt so long to bed. so maybe:
7am wake up
10.30-12.00(or even 12.30 if she will do that.)
3.45/4.00 nap for 30 mins
7.30 bedtime.

By doing the 2 shorter naps sge isnt getting a good restfull sleep so the A time after is probably a bit too long,she is getting a bit OT hence the NW.

[beckygatt]

I tried something like this today; so she woke up at 7.15 and napped at 11 but only until 12! So now what? Probably won't nap again before 3/3.30 and don't think a catnap will be enough :-/ She is so inconsistent with naps. They could be anything from an hour to two. I think thats why I've had trouble settling with one routine lately; it depends on the day... But I know this isn't ideal. What can I do

[LucySol]

mmm,i think she is going to need her A time pushing first thing to get a decent nap.How was her night?if it was good i think she can handle a bit longer.

i think its going to about finding the right A time to get a decent nap.id go for 4 hrs after a good night and see how she goes x

[beckygatt]

Last night she slept quite well; 2 NW but very brief - went right back to sleep. So you think nap was short because she was UT? She did take a little while to settle... But in a situation like today what should I do? Its 3pm here and she's showing no signs of being sleepy!When she naps as late as midday I find it veery difficult to get a 2nd nap in :-/

Thanks so much for your help!

[LucySol]

you might find she can even manage 4.15 A,see how she goes,push her to 4.15 if she seems to be coping ok.A 1 hr nap was always UT for us.Be interesting to see what Shiv thinks? im sure Shiv said her lo was ready for 1 nap by 13 months,there could be that and she is getting ready for that but we have to find the right a time to get her to take a good nap.

id try and make the best of what you can today.maybe a car ride or buggy to AP a nap out of her but watch her A time before bed.push too much and she will get her OT NW again x

[beckygatt]

She ended up having a 20 min nap yesterday afternoon, until 4.10, and I put her to bed at 6.45. She actually settled quite easily (I didn't think she'd be tired enough) and she pretty much slept through till 6am! This morning she woke up at 6.30 and by 9.30 was dosing off on my lap, but I'm trying to keep her awake longer (my mum came over to visit which helped distract her :-)) Will see how long I manage to stretch A time and hope for the best!

[Shiv52]

Sorry am only getting back now!

At 13 months 3.5-4.5 A time is typical.  I don't think I would do less that 3.5 for A time at this age as its just not enough to get a good nap.  But given that that A time is not getting you a long nap I'd be inclined to go for 3.45-4 hours A time like Lucy sugested.  I still kept the A time regardless of nap lenght as I found all the swapping and changing did not help her to get used to the longer A times in the long run and I was getting stuck in a cycle of short naps etc.   

At that age our routine was:
8am  Wake up  (5 hours A time)
1pm  Nap (for 2-3 hours)
3.30pm  Wake up  (5 hours A time) 
8.30pm  Bed 

When we were on two naps we did tend to have a 11 hour night/13 hour day to fit in the naps and the A times necessary to get good naps and DD not fighting bedtime.   After the switch to one nap we were down to 11.5 hour night/12.5 hour day.

Have you tried having a few days where you are strict with pushing your A times regardless of nap length to see will body clock get used to it and the naps extend?  I think at this age you need to be consistent for 3/4 days to see if a change in A time is going to make a difference.

I do think she is trying to tell you she needs more A time! 

 

[beckygatt]

No I haven't really been consistent enough lately...

So today she woke up at 6.30 and had her first nap from 10.35 - 12. Would you suggest another 4hrs A now? If she naps under an hour should I still keep A at 4hrs, even before bedtime? I do think she can handle 4hrs in general but not sure if she ends up getting OT because she doesn't always nap long enough... As you say perhaps a few days of consistency will help things to settle.

If she does nap 1.5hrs in the morning would you suggest shortening pm nap or letting her wake up alone?

Thanks!!

[Shiv52]

I'd do next nap at 3.45pm (so 3.45 A time and in bed and ready to sleep for 3.45pm) and let it go for 45-50 minutes but then wake her and then aim for your normal bedtime at 7.30pm (will only be 3 hours A time but with such a short nap hopefully she'll settle ok).  Obviously watch her and if she's falling off her feet with tiredness before that put her down a bit early. 

This is where I found the two naps really hard.  Its hard to fit them both in without ending up with a ridiculously late bedtime IYKWIM?  She seems to definately be heading toward 1 nap.

Ideally would you prefer short nap in the am and longer nap in pm or the other way round?  Just trying to have a think about a routine for you.   

[beckygatt]

Yes its really hard to fit it all in!! Ideally I suppose I'd prefer short am and longer pm but don't know if this will suit her best... Really confused now! Whatever will work best for  her and get her to that 1 delicious long nap! 

[Shiv52]

How's the rest of day going?

[beckygatt]

She is generally fine during the day; a bit fussy when she gets tired but otherwise good. Yesterday she ended up napping from 4.15 till 5 (wouldn't sleep before that; took her to bed at 3.45 like you said). She then had bedtime at about 8 and slept through till 6.30. Today she had a nap from 11-1. Its now 5.30 and I'm not really going to fit in another nap so will give her an early bedtime, maybe 6.30. What do you think?

[*Becky*]

6.30pm sounds good. I tend to not do bedtime before that for my lo but even earlier would work for some....does she tend to do well on very early bedtimes?

[beckygatt]

TBH I'm a bit scared to do bedtime before 6.30! I worry she'll wake up too early even though I know its not supposed to work like that. Usually bedtime is somewhere between 7 and 8 unless we're in a situation like today. In the end I put her to bed at 6.15 and she slept by 6.25; she was really tired by then!