EW/NW Disaster - 5 months

[Brooklyn_Mommy]

My 5 month old used to sleep great at night. He was going to sleep around 8, getting his dream feed at 11, and then sleeping through most nights until 5 or 6. Once he even slept until 6:30! I was so happy.

Now, he wakes up for his DF if we're not there right on time. And he wakes up angry! Then he will wake up at least twice more during the night, sometimes way more often. Last night's torture: 

7:30 PM: nursed him
8 PM: sleep
10:30 PM: woke for not-so-DF
12:30 AM: woke, I ignored him and he went back to sleep.
2:30 AM: woke, I gave him a paci and he went back to sleep eventually (he does not take the paci anymore generally)
3:30 AM: woke, I nursed him
6:00 AM: woke, I brought him in bed and nursed him, put him back in crib, he fussed, I brought him back in bed, nursed him more, realized his overnight diaper had leaked, changed him, realized he was not going back to sleep for any reason - up, giggling, cooing, playing. Ugh.

We are, I think, off props. I do not nurse him to sleep, he is awake when he goes down. The paci is pretty much out of play (his doing, not mine!). He is still swaddled because the last attempt to take him out was disastrous. He has taken to banging his legs in his crib at night, sometimes while awake, sometimes while seemingly asleep. He does this with such force that we are afraid he is going to break his crib!

In terms of his days, he's not really on a 4 hour EASY yet. I know this is bad but I don't know how to fix it. The main problem seems to be that he is barely able to stay up for 2 hours. If we keep busy he can but otherwise it's hard for him. Then when I put him down, he will only very rarely sleep for 2 hours. So then he's woken up, it's only been 3 or 3 and a half hours, and I don't know what to do with him at that point. If I don't feed him and wait until it's been 4 hours, then once an hour after that has passed he's ready for bed again, and then up in an hour, and then the whole schedule is off. I don't know if it would make a difference in terms of his night wakings.

I should mention that I nurse him during the days Fridays-Mondays and he gets 2 7-oz bottles of EBM at play group Tues-Thurs and one bottle of formula. His DF has always been formula. We are waiting until 6 months to start solids. He's a big boy - above 97%ile in height and almost 18 lbs!

This is a big mess and I desperately need some help! Please I am so tired. DH is threatening to make me do CIO with him because 3+ NWs is killing both of us!

[Brooklyn_Mommy]

Today's EASY was all over the place. But I'll post it anyway, since every day is pretty much all over the place at this point.

E: 6 am
A
S: 8 (woke up and refused to go back to sleep after an hour)

E: 9 am
A
S: 11 am (slept for about 45 minutes, woke up angry, put him back to bed - slept nicely for another hour! very unusual)

E: 1 pm
A: went shopping in the car
S: 3:20 (in the car, slept for 25 minutes and then woke up and refused to go back to bed)

E: 4:30
A
S: 6:30 (half an hour catnap)
A: 7:30 (bath)
E: 7:45
S: 8:15 ish - I HOPE!

I am listening to him thwack his legs against the crib mattress right now. I have swaddled him with one arm out tonight because he was turning himself around in circles trying to get his arm out! Usually he doesn't do that so I figured if he wants his arm, he can have it. Usually he doesn't miss a nap like he did today while I was running errands - he usually sleeps beautifully in the car if we are out, but today he didn't.

Today I've been making more of an effort to have him go 4 hours between feedings. Usually our EASY is more like this:

E: 7:00 (he will nurse on one side only because he has been eating all night long!)
A
S: 8:30

E: 10 (a full feed)
A
S: 11:30/45 (for about 45 minutes)

E: 1
A
S: 2 (since he's already been up for awhile; about 45 minutes)

E: 4
A
S: 5:30 (he'll sleep an hour or an hour and a half)

E: 7
A (bath) 7:30
S: 8

DF: 11 (usually wide awake, cries out for it)

Thank you so much for any help. Two NWs may be normal at this age but I know he can go without food much longer than he is lately. I wonder if he may be teething since he drools a lot and puts everything in his mouth, but nothing has come up yet and he's been drooling for a month already! We are just so exhausted and need him to rest. Hopefully tonight will be better....but he is so exhausted from his lack of afternoon naps that I'm not sure of what will happen. We will move the DF to 10:30 tonight.

[arbour01]

hey..

I have sympathy for you..
My DS just turned 4 months.. at  3 he was sleeping through the night.. once in a while wake up,..then last week he started waking everynight to eat - I gave him an extra feed through the day to try and get more calories in

He is also very big.. we are going to the dr wed for next weigh in , but my guess is 16lbs+ lbs and he is over 26" tall.. so a BIG boy..

I BF and give formula too.. and his DF is always formula.. he usually takes 7 oz at 10:15,.. and stil waking up between 2:45-4am to eat

I have decided that if it is still this way this week I am going to start solid.. (Tracey recommends this for big babies) I have 2 jars of pears waiting .. It not really what I planned either, but I dont want night waking and eating to become a habit. She says to give 1-2 tsp twice a day in addition to regular feeds...

maybe something to consider?

Hopefully this will help me.... I feel for ya!!  HUGS!

[Brooklyn_Mommy]

Thanks for the sympathy - we are just so wrecked. Moving the DF to 10:30 seemed to help last night, so thank you Jane! DH gave it to him at 10:30 and he pretty much slept through it which is what he used to do. I think moving it earlier helps with phasing it out too, is that right?

However last night at 3:30 DS woke up and complained in the crib. I waited a bit to see if he'd just drop back off but he did not. So eventually I got him and fed him, and then I put him back in the crib where he refused to go back to sleep until after 5. 5! He was in a good mood and wanted to play (and of course bang his legs against the crib mattress LOUDLY)! What seemed to make the difference (or maybe I'm just reading things in where there's no significance) is that I changed his diaper around a quarter to 5. I have been putting him in Huggies Overnight Diapers and I think maybe he is uncomfortable in them. Tonight I will try a regular diaper and see if that helps. Maybe it will...

This morning he woke at 7 due to his hour and a half-long party this morning. He went down for his nap at about 9:10 or 9:15 and slept an hour and a half. I fed him again at 11 and he was really tired by 12:30. He went to sleep then and now at 2, he is talking to himself in his crib a bit (and banging his legs, what is up with that?) and I'm hopeful that he will go back to sleep for a little bit. I don't want to feed him again until 3.

The problem with his naps being shorter than 2 hours is that his schedule then seems to be EASAEAS if I am to space out the feedings every 4 hours. Does that make any sense? Is that normal?

[arbour01]

I usually do EASA EASA too.. and Im not even on a 4 hour yet

[Brooklyn_Mommy]

Thanks all. So now I have two questions:

1. His CN was really early - 4:00 until 4:30. Am I to keep him up until 7:00? That's his next scheduled eating time (although I did just give him six ounces in a bottle - I am too afraid not to cluster feed!). Or should I let him have another CN? 2 and a half hours is a long time for him to be up!

2. If he wakes tonight, should I feed him? I don't know what to do and I can't handle another long wake like last night's! What do I do??

Also with respect to solids, I really wanted to wait until 6 months b/c he does not sit independently yet and everything I have read points to waiting. He's now over 18 lbs and almost 29" long. That would seem to indicate he's chunking up nicely on BM and formula. But if solids would help the NW, I would do it! Good luck to you with the solids, Arbour01, I hope they help!

Thanks again so much.

[mamitadegaby]

Hi there!
My DD is 51/2mo and she started having similar problems with NW/EW, and very short naps, after nap problem was solved then EW came, so now, naps are all over the place again. Since your A time is still 2 hours, I would start working on increasing it, for what I read you have to do it really slowly (by 5 mins). So, better try it like that, I learnt it the bad way, I tried to do it fast this morning (30 min) and it messed her am nap big time, she just did 30 min, on her pm nap she was waking up every 5 mins
You never said if your lo was waking up around the same time every night. If so, have you tried W2S or giving him just water instead of feeding him when he wakes up? I tried water and realized she was not really hungry. You could also feed him less and less every time until he realizes it's not worth it. I suppose if nothing really works on the feeding department you may have to go for solids; else he may get used to be nursed to sleep.
I will start on solids myself tomorrow. She too does not sit up independently yet. Still trying to figure out if she's teething or what, I swear I saw a little one coming out but the next day it was gone!
For your CN question, I am currently trying to cut hers since I read somewhere else that may be one reason for NW/EW at this age, but haven't succeeded yet. The day she took a CN early, I did not put her to bed early and it was rrrrreally bad, so the next day it happened I just moved her A and S earlier and it worked! Today, I'm working on her EW btw 5.20-5.30 daily. So far, I tried W2S half an hour before 5.30 am and it did not work. So, I tried W2S at exactly 1 hour before, as Tracy says and the first day it worked perfectly, so she woke up at 6.20, then today she went back to 5, although this time at 5.45am. I hope it's just like Tracy says that you have to stick to it, so I'm on for W2S the whole week.
Keep us posted!

[RachelC]

{{{hugs}}} to you all.

Just a reminder, solids are just for fun at this age and do not compare to the number of calories that formula and breast milk have.  They will not solve all your problems.

Brooklyn_Mommy (sorry, missed your name) - what happens when he wakes at night?  What techniques are you trying to get him back to sleep?  When you feed, is he actively feeding, can you hear swallowing?

Yes, I do agree that A time needs to be slowly increased.  When you see signs of tiredness, get up and walk around the house, calm and low key- pointing things out, singing... until you have reached a longer A time.  Do you have a wind down routine?

What happens at play group?  Does he nap there?

Also, I would aim for an earlier bedtime.  You are aiming for a 12 hour day, so if waking for the day is 6, you try for a 6pm bedtime.  Make sure that end of the day catnap is truly a cat nap - 30-45 minutes.

Consistency will be key.  Can you and dh alternate nights so one of you can get some real rest every other night?  Not a good idea if he will plan to let him CIO though, have you convinced him otherwise?

Let's get some answers to these questions and come up with a game plan.

Apologies for this post being all over the place... just trying to sort some things out.

[arbour01]

hi..

FYI
yesterday every time he fed (BFed) I also gave him 40z formula after and this morning he didn't wake till 5am. so I am thinking BF supply is just too low.. I am tired of always pumping to try to increase.. so I am going to slowly switch to formula.. and maybe just BF in the morning..
I would love to do that but feel guilty likr I am being lazy b/c everyone seems to tell me I should still be BFing.. I usually don't care what other people say,.. Why DO I want to stop but feel terrible at the same time!??

[Brooklyn_Mommy]

Lots to address here! Thanks to all for your input.

He does not wake the same time each night so I'm afraid W2S won't work. Last night, for example, he refused a second CN so I put him in the bath at 6:30 and straight to bed so that he was asleep at 7. He woke at: 9:30, (df at 10:30), 3:00, 4:30, and 6. I nursed him at 9:30 and he went back to bed nicely, same at 3. He is definitely eating - swallowing, breast becomes empty, etc. At 4:30 I felt confident he wasn't hungry so I changed his diaper, rocked him a bit, and put him down. He cried and I whispered in a strict tone - which he has never heard from me before! - "Nighttime is for sleeping, you need to go back to sleep. It's enough." Strangely he did stop and went back to sleep a few minutes later. At 6 I lost my nerve and took him in bed with me and let him nurse a bit and we both went back to sleep til 7:15. I AM SO TIRED.

At play group he naps on their schedule - from 10-12 and 2-4. I wish I could replicate this at home but when there isn't a ton of stimulation like there is there, he's soooo sleepy after 1.5 - 2 hours A time and starts to complain a lot. I suppose I will work on extending his A time until we can match their schedule.

I think he may be teething and will try Tylenol tonight in his bottle at the DF. I hate the idea that he is waking from pain and I'm not doing anything to assuage it. Although he tends to be in a great mood during the day.

Another possibility is hunger I suppose. I want to test my output and may take him to the ped's office on Friday to nurse so I can use their scale and determine how much he gets when he nurses. It is very tempting to switch to formula as you say Arbour01 because you can figure out how much the baby gets and not worry about supply. But the health and bonding benefits weigh too heavily for me right now to switch since he is still gaining weight nicely. He loves nursing and frankly so do I. I don't think stopping would work for us right now although as I say it is very tempting.

Good luck to all, any further advice MUCH appreciated. I need need need some sleep and I'm sure he feels the same way!

[arbour01]

Def do whats best for you..

Happy momma = happy baby..
Sorry im not more help!

[RachelC]

Sounds like if he naps well at play group on their timing, that's the way to go.  Perhaps once his days are consistent, his nights will come around too.

Here are some ideas for day time stuff:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52864.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52865.0

Also, keep in mind that the 6 month growth spurt is around the corner.  If you notice a need for more nursings in the day, make sure you're not ignoring those cues at night as well.

[Brooklyn_Mommy]

So Tuesday night I tanked him up a bit before bed (6 oz bottle an hour before his bath and then nursed before bed). He was sleeping nicely and so had his DF at 11. Then he slept through til 5! Wednesday night I did the same before bed and he slept through until 6! Last night he slept til 5 again and then went back to sleep until 6:30. But I think I may have determined the cause of the NWs - DH and I think we see a little tooth coming up on the bottom. Could be that's what was bothering him.

All the NWs did provide a much-needed incentive for me to move him to a proper 4 hour EASY and we are doing much better with that, although often he is still taking 45 minute naps.  I imagine that will right itself with time. I kept him up until 9 this morning for his first nap so hopefully it will be a long one. I want to move to a predictable nap schedule of 10-12 and 2-4 like they do at day care but keeping him up til 10 is going to be very hard.

Also, yesterday morning I was eating breakfast and he was watching me very carefully and started to grab for it and make chewing motions! So I said OK. This morning before his nap he sampled some rice cereal. Can't say he ate too much of it but it was very cute watching him try to eat off a spoon and make little faces!

Thanks to all for your help. I hope he keeps sleeping nicely! Good luck!

[arbour01]

that is amazing!! So happy for you - don't you feel totally elated? I know /i woke up at 5am and was waiting for him to stir... and then when my DH got up at 6 I asked him to go check on the DS because he wasn't up yet.

Hope everything keeps going well!