OT cycle (?) and EW- can't break

[Mjaz]

Hi Ladies - remember us?  Ha ha.

The last time I posted on any board was 3 months ago - we have had 3 splendid months of approx. 3 hours days sleep and 11 hour STTN nights.

2 weeks ago Elijah has a stomach virus - fever/vomiting lasted 24 hours, but his bowels weren't "normal" for a good 10 days.  Since then we have really been struggling - I *think* with OT.

He is waking around 4:50-5am no matter what time we get him to bed - have tried as early as 6pm and as late as 7:30.  The one recent night he did an 11:15 night was when he had 3.5 hours of naps.  I thought I had his OT caught up, but alas...

Here's what's going on in addition to the very early EW - (night sleep has become 9.5-10 hours)

-He's FIGHTING bedtime - last night it took an hour to get him down.  So his final A was something like 4.5 hours!
-He will not APOP out of the EW anymore.  He seems tired, but also restless and "wired" - like he tries to fall back asleep, but can't - his arms or legs start moving, his eyes pop open, etc.
-For some naps, he wakes around the 45 min. mark, but lays in his crib with his eyes wide open (he's a tummy sleeper) and just makes little grunting noises.  He hardly gives me ANY cues for naps anymore - and I wonder if that's an OT sign too?

Tonight he went down with 10 minutes of shh/pat (has never needed this before) and then 45 minutes later was awake SCREAMING.  :/  Also woke at 12:30 am screaming.  And then was up for the day at 4:50.  Which makes getting to a 6:30 bedtime nearly impossible.  I'll be looking at nap #1 at 8am - nap 2 at 12:15ish - how do I make it through the day???

Do you feel this is all OT?  If he won't APOP for me, how do I catch him up?  Could his illness have really thrown us for this bad of a downward spiral?

I'd appreciate ANY thoughts of recommendations.  I miss my little well-rested 14-hour/day sleeping baby Smiley  THANK YOU.  Mom and Dad are LOSING IT :/

[empowered mama]

wow, this is very similar to our situation.  Your last night sounds just like ours in regards to the wakings and I'm really stumped myself.  Interested to hear some thoughts on this...

you are not alone!

[Tweakster]

He's FIGHTING bedtime - last night it took an hour to get him down.  So his final A was something like 4.5 hours!
-He will not APOP out of the EW anymore.  He seems tired, but also restless and "wired" - like he tries to fall back asleep, but can't - his arms or legs start moving, his eyes pop open, etc.
-For some naps, he wakes around the 45 min. mark, but lays in his crib with his eyes wide open (he's a tummy sleeper) and just makes little grunting noises.  He hardly gives me ANY cues for naps anymore - and I wonder if that's an OT sign too?

Actually Melinda this smells a bit UT.  You know their sleep needs start to shift at the start of 2-1 - which starts around 10 mths but can start earlier for some.  What's the routine now and A times?  It could be that on the other side of this illness he has increased some A time.

I offer hugs because I know how stinky ongoing EW are, it's great that he had a spell of nice 11 hour nights - let's see if we can get him back there.

[aylien]

Sounds very similar to our situation too.  My LO is 9.5 months old and consistenly wakes at 5-5:30 even though she is clearly still very tired.  I put her to bed at 6:45/7:00pm and then she takes a good 45 minutes to fall asleep, and she has about 2 NW's each night (in addition to the 5am EW).  So her total nighttime sleep is about 9 hours.  She takes 2 naps of about 1-1.25 hrs each.

Curious, what does APOP mean?

[Mjaz]

Hi ladies - and hi Wendy (did ya miss me?)
Aylien - APOP = Accidental Parenting on Purpose

Wendy, I admit that I almost fell of the chair when you said it sounded UT.  Ha ha ha.  I have TRIED AND TRIED pushing his A and it ALWAYS backfires.

To be honest, I've had no clue as how to get through the day on 2 naps, when he seems to want a 2:45/2:50 A time.  I know it's crazy, but if I push to 3:10 I get a one hour nap where he wakes grouchy.  So I ASSUMED I was in an OT mess.  What do you guys think?  So today I felt I HAD to do 3 naps...

So this is what today looked like:

Wake: 4:55am
A: total 3:04
S: 7:59-9:09 (1:10)

A: total 2:51 (told sitter to follow him)
S: 12:00-1:30 (best naps he's had here in weeks)

A: total 3:42
S: 5:12-5:49 (37) APOP'd (was a mess here)

A: total: 1:54
S: 7:45 (fought bedtime for 30 minutes)

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Just marking my spot, Melinda.  And wanted to say that I often think Wendy is nuts (in the best of ways - heehee!! ) but perhaps she has a point?  I just pushed Austin through that ridiculous OT on Wendy's advice and I must say (fingers crossed!) that I think we're coming out on the other side.  Hmm. 

[Mjaz]

OK, Kate, what did you to push through?  I am up for anything!  I feel like I am getting OT naps when I push his A - so how can this be UT?   I'm so confused :/

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

I cut his AM nap to 1 hr.  Scared the living you-know-what out of me!   Wendy suggested going to 45 min but I started here.  The first couple of days I did a 3h A after that and I was still getting PM naps of 1h15 or so (45 min one day) so today I pushed that A to 3h15 and poof - had to wake him at 1.5h.  And I've been having the same PM nap struggle you have had for a while now.  Sherry Lynn says for chronic EWers (like our boys!) that short AM/long PM is generally better.  As of today at my house I'd have to agree.   Today was day 4 and it was definitely wonky the first couple of days but it really feels like Austin is back today.  He's been happy and cheery and has been babbling himself to sleep consistently for the first time in weeks.    I do think he was OT but needed less daytime sleep in the end.  It sounds totally nuts but I think he needed me to help him cut that daytime sleep so he could really get restful nights back.  (Although he was up talking to himself for some unknown amount of time last night - hoping that will pass!) 

Big hugs. HTH.

[Mjaz]

I don't know if this is a small victory or what - but after that marathon of a day yesterday, he slept 10 hours with no NWs and awoke at 5:45.  So at least I know the EW at 4:50 is not habitual.  BUT, still a 10 hour night - which is going to make today another very hard day to get through on two naps.  Ideas?

Thanks!

[Tweakster]

Hi there, ok I will admit to being a bit doolally but nuts might be a strong word ;-)

Sooo ok what is happening at his EW...you say he won't APOP back down so what is he doing?  Are you leaving him in his crib to self-entertain or extend that rest time?

Secondly, 10 hours and 3+ day sleep really isn't bad at his age.  In fact 13 hours is right smack dab in the norm for LO of 9+ mths.  But since he was doing 11 hour nights something is up, amiss and generally needs to be sorted out.

2 hr 45/50 is really what a 6/7 mth old is doing - I forget how old is Elijah's adjusted age?  At 9 mths you are looking at 3.25-3.5 A and possibly cutting some day sleep if LO is heading that way.  3 naps are no longer going to help your nights.  Consolidated naps is what does it.  I really wonder if he's just UT.  UT/OT loops are the worst and the only way to get out, as Kate has mentioned, is to push through it.

If it were me I would try:
Awake 5:45
Nap @ 9 - 10:30 (A = 3 hr 15)
Nap @ 1:30 - 3 (A = 3 hrs)
Asleep by 6:30 (A = 3 hr 30)

The final A is longer but he has had 2 good naps under his belt and a shorter middle A to compensate. 

It's just a suggestion though :-)  Austin is older than Elijah and a bit more ahead with A times so I would hesitate to cut any day sleep just yet.  Let's just see if we can get him doing 2 naps consistently with age-appropriate A times.

[Mjaz]

Thanks, Wendy. 

When he wakes in the morning he is WIDE AWAKE and ready to go.  He can play in his crib on his own for up to 45 minutes - which we do every morning.  When I try to APOP - and I have tried EVERYTHING - he tries to go back to sleep, but can't - he's so restless he just can't fall asleep for more than a few minutes.  I've even tried to feed and rock - which almost always works - but not at the EW. 

I know!  Elijah was up to 3:15/3:20 before he got sick - which I think is right where he probably should be.  This 2:45/2:50 thing is new - and has me wondering about teeth?  Would that make sense?  Elijah was 3 weeks early - so adjusted he'd be 8 mos, 1 weekish.  I tried 3:10 as our first A a couple days ago after a good, long night (the only one in 2 weeks!) sleep of 11:30 and he woke at 30 mm crying.  So I backed off...but you are saying I need to just stick to the higher A times and push through it till he readjusts?

I didn't see your routine suggestion till after I put him down for nap one at 3hrs A time, but I will try to stick to the next two As of 3 and then 3.5.  I am scared of putting him down at 6:30, for fear he will be up at 4:30 - but I am willing to give it a go again. 

Is 3.5 the max you'd do as a last A? 

Thanks so much...so appreciate your help.

[Tweakster]

Hi there Melinda, teething can reduce A times.  Are you medicating before naps and night?  If he's teething then take it slow, but I still think you need to do it to get out of this.  He's just not tired enough to go back to sleep at the EW.  Some babies are prone to OT and will give you kickback when you adjust their routine.  They like what they like and aren't a fan of change.  So I think often OT is inevitable when you start to push the A time.  But it really tends to even out once they are back on track.

I know about early bedtimes being scary.  But really I don't think a CN is going to help here.  I think if he gets more consolidated sleep with a boost in activity, you might see some improvement.

And yes, beware of a too long last A, very common cause of OT and NW.

[Mjaz]

I don't know if he's teething - sometimes I think yes, other times no.  Today they don't seem to be bothering him.

OK, with a 3 hour A, he will be going down at 1pm for nap #2.  He almost never sleeps 2 hours anymore, so we're looking at - best case - waking at 2:30.  That means bed at 6 or a 4 hour A time or a CN.  What would you do?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hi there, ok I will admit to being a bit doolally but nuts might be a strong word ;-)

Now to me doolally sounds stronger than nuts!!   Culture barrier?

What did you decide to do, Melinda?  I probably would've gone for bed at 6:15 and hoped for the best.

Glad he at least had a NW-free night last night.  Austin needs a chat about that!

[Mjaz]

I found myself saying "tickety boo" the other day and LOL thinking of Wendy

OK, well, I had a last minute afternoon away from the house and MIL was in charge (OY!) from 12-6.  She put him down after 3 hr of A and got a 1:12 nap - I'm guessing UT.  So I ran in here, threw him in PJs and started wind down immediately.  He was asleep by 6:25 and went down without much of a fight.  So- who knows!  Tomorrow I am going to try As of 3:15, 3 and 3:30.  Kate, did you get any OT naps in response to pushing?  Did you just keep the next A the same regardless of the first nap length?

Hope things are go tickety-boo for you last night. Ha ha.
M.