EWs and NWs for 8 mo. - can you take a look?

[empowered mama]

the saga continues....

hi there friends of BW,

Have been working on 8 month DS's routine to seek a solution to NWs and EWs that have been taking place for nearly 2 months now.  Have received some excellent help, but looking for some new eyes to possibly take a look at our routine to see if something is off.  He is averaging 3-4 NWs per night, and often an EW around 5:45ish.  Sometimes he will go back to sleep for another hour, but other times he is up for the day.  

Here is our routine for the past few days:

5/18/10 - had 10 hrs sleep the night before
EW @ 5:45  (went back down after an hour of BF)
Awake at 7:45
A - 3h35
S - 11:20 (1h25 min nap)

E - 12:45
A - 3h35
S - 4:20 (1h10 min nap)

E - 5:30
A - 3h5
BT @ 8:35

- NWs at 10, 11, 3, 4:10

5/19/10 - had 10 hrs sleep the night before
EW @ 4:15 (went back after BF for a few min)
Awake @ 6:55
A - 3h25
S - 10:20 (2h15min nap)

E - 12:35
A - 3h35
S - 4:10 (1hr nap - had to wake)

E - 5:10
A - 2h40
Bedtime @ 7:50

- NWs 45min after BT, 1:00, and 4:15  (up for the day @ 6:40 and got 10.5 hrs sleep - a little improvement)

- Routine also includes 3 meals of solids of 2oz each.

I know DS is on the high side of A times, but usually if we cut back it will only breed a short nap.  Have been tweaking the last A on and off, but haven't figured that one out yet.  We are holding steady on it at 3h5 min (after a long PM nap).

Have thought of the possibility of teething, but he is quite happy throughout the day and doesn't show much indication of this.  However, he is taking much longer to settle for naps - perhaps this is a symptom?

Does anyone see a potential tweak in there that I'm missing?

Appreciate any thoughts/ideas - TIA

[anna*]

What happens when he wakes in the night, how do you settle him back to sleep?

[empowered mama]

Most of the time he can resettle, but occasionally if he is really upset I go in and hold him/sing for a few minutes and lay him back down.  This works well for early NWs.  However at the 4:15 waking, he simply will not settle and I end up BF for just a few minutes, lay him down and he goes back out.  I know this is not ideal, but not sure any other way to get him to settle?  PD doesn't work, seems to make him more upset.  I have a feeling at this point, that particular waking may be habitual 

Is there a better way to respond?

[anna*]

If he's waking and resettling for some of the NWs, that is great. Re the 4.15 waking, have you tried wake to sleep?

[empowered mama]

No, but per the suggestion of another moderator, I am going to tonight.  I should do this around 3ish, correct?

[anna*]

I would usually aim for 1hr before the habitual waking, so 3.15?

[empowered mama]

Great, thank you anna - will give it a go and see what comes of it!

[empowered mama]

hi anna,

Last night we had NWs 1 hr after BT, then 45 min later.  I did W2S at 3:00, and he had a waking at 3:30, then at 5:40 and I was able to APOP him to 6:40.  When doing W2S, do I need to rouse him fully?  I sort of just rolled him to his belly, he made a little noise and went back to sleep.

My gut still tells me OT is lurking somewhere, but can't put my finger on it 

[anna*]

waking 45 mins after bed does sound like OT for sure. His A times are around 3.5hrs right? That's on the high side for 8 months, have you thought about cutting back? And/or trying an early bedtime? (sorry if youve answered those questions already)

[empowered mama]

no worries   yes, I've tried shortening the As, and it typically only breeds a short nap.  His first A is about 3h25, 2nd A is 3h35, and been keeping the last A around 3h5.  Occasionally I can get him to bed a little earlier (for example, last night was down at 2h50) but it hasn't made much difference  (Had 4 wakings last night).  This is where we are in a pickle.  Can't figure where the OT is, and having a hard time scaling back on As without getting a short nap, yk?

Any thoughts? 

[kaynay]

hi empowered mama...we are 8 mts yesterday...our A times are anywhere from 3-4 the first a time, 3.25 the second a time and 3.25/ 3.5 the last a time...mine too has always been on the high side of a time...we have about the same amount of solids 3 x a day as well...did you say you are bfing? do you give a bottle before bed or do you bfeed before bed we starting giving a bottle before bed just to be sure he got a good amount as my supply always seemed to be lower between 5-8pm...by this time he might just be used to higher a times we too have ew around 5 seems to be habit but i gave him and feed to get him to go back to sleep for a more reasonable 7ish start of day. I see your last feed is 510 have you tried a top on feed just before bedtime maybe he is just a tad restless due to hunger?

[empowered mama]

Hi K - thanks for the thoughts and glad to know there are others in the same boat 

yes, DS definitely is tanked up before bed.  We do the 5:10 feed, then at BT give 4 oz bottle EBM, plus nurse before bed so I know he is not hungry (plus 3 decent meals of solids).  We typically get 2 early NWs which would point to OT I'm guessing.  Do you know if it's possible to scale back on A times without getting a short nap?  I'm guessing his As are too long, but don't know how to maintain the day sleep by cutting back As yk?

[kaynay]

if we scale back on A times it would be the first A time of the day maybe try that A time shorter 15 mins or so...this way if you get a short nap you have the rest of the day to make up for it etc...yes I agree the earlier Earlier NWs means you are in for a restless night...also I have learned that I dont dwell on the baby monitor anymore some of it is psyhologicaly for us if we hear them then our brains start calculating a restless night and who knows on another level maybe even manifest it...so I just put mine to bed and go about my night if he needs me I can hear him if I wake from sleep at night there is usually a reason as I tend to always be up for no reason then a minute later I hear him thus was the reason why I roused from sleep those maternal instincts or something...so how do you know he is waking do you hear him on monitor or do you sleep in same room?
at 6 mts mine sleeps in his own room. bed and I only use the monitor if I feel a strong need this way the less I hear him stirring the better for me and for him then when they need us we hear and chances are that would be in yoru case closer to 4 am which is a good chunck of sleep if he went down at 8 what do you think?

[empowered mama]

K - unfortunately we are in a 1BR apt so we hear every peep, scratch and sniff.  Can be very interruptive with our supersonic mama hearing!

I just put DS down for his PM nap and he played and played way past his A time.  And of course, a short nap ensues...bummer.  This happened yesterday and I've been APOPing the 2nd half of the nap.  You think this is a bad idea?  Is it more important for them to get the sleep, or have a short nap with no APOPing?

Either way, I know we will have OT NWs - even if I shorten the last A (tried this last night).  Argh - there seems to be no way out!

[kaynay]

serioulsy maybe he just needs 1 of those A times to be very long it may seem weird but for us the first A time of the day is always so long the second is shorter and the third is medium its not like the A time is always equal...also maybe before is there a way to "wear him out" physically like rolling with him on ground, new books, lots of interaction with you to make him really ready for a nap with overstimulating but generally mommy fun?
I think having a 1 bd apt and you hearing everything amplifies things a lot more than it would be if otherwise...seriously when my lo turned 6 mos my husband moved the mattress to the living room and we slept there for a month just so we could be seperate and everyone get used to sleeping in their own space...is it an option for you to sleep in living room or any other place in the apt?
We have a toddler so our baby couldnt share a room wtih him yet so he was in our room in a crib but at 6 mos we left him in our room and rearrange our place luckily we have a loft area that we used as an office that now our bed is in this will be how it goes until both share a room then we can go back to how it was...but if that is not an option to rearrge things have you tried ear plugs?
or have you tried taking a calcium magnesium supplement that helps you sleep naturally easily and still be coherent to hear your baby like waking only when he needs you? I take one sometimes called CALM it can be found in natural food stores also good for breastfeeding milk supply I believe. I would try making 1 A time long the one you think he is the most able to handle then shorten the A times as the day goes on...work him out for that A time get him to take a good nap then at night try your best to not be on the alert so what if he wakes as long as he resettles that is fine my first babbled all the time then always went back now my second is starting to babble sometimes a little I sleep through it to rouse when I know he is hungry come 5 amis.