11 month old waking up every few hours! HELP!

[~Emma~]

If you feel pu/pd is not for you and your LO hun then dont stress about it. Especially if s/p is still working, Tracey only ever intended pu/pd as a last resort and if s/p still does the trick then stick with it.

 After your LO is a year then wi/wo is another option for you so you are not out of them yet. This will resolve sooner or later hun.

 If you think he cn do the last final stretch with a long A then do what suits you both, you know him best. I'm pretty sure Sara will be able to give you better adivce than I on naps though. When we did 2-1 we did long pm then short pm naps, the afternoon was always AP's as he would never go down for it....EVER. Not ideal but it never seemed to affect his abilities for independnt sleep at other times so I went with it. I think that the road most recommended though is short am then long pm, again I'm sure Sara will have better input than myself! But all in all yes, I do think you need to think about starting to cut the daysleep back a little.

 Can I ask about your wind down routine? I only ask because DS is spirited and likes next to no w/d! Its a spirited trait, keep it short and sweet other wise they will get wound up more and likely OS! Just a thought.

 

[~Sara~]

DS is being a handful today...am just letting you know I'm coming back to respond!

[~Emma~]

((((((hugs)))))))) Sara! I know all too well how you feel! 

[kk.tobe]

Last night was amazing! LO slept within 5 minutes at 7:30PM and woke up in the morning at 5:20AM! I feel so well-rested, had forgotton what it feels like to have uninterrupted sleep! Wooohooo! Obviously I'm not getting my hopes up, it could be a one time thing - but i'm sure we're getting somewhere. More importantly, I dont feel as frustated or helpless as I was when I started the thread. A big thank you for the support, it does wonders!

I managed to put him back to sleep, he didnt fight it and didnt really ask for a feed, slept until 6:30AM.

But I do need to tweak the naps, to make this work for good. Sara, you can take your time Hugs

Emma, his wind down routine is not too long, its bath, book and bottle. Before the bottle I read him a book, but it gets him jumping in the cot, so a short story maybe for 5-7 minutes. After the bottle I always sat near the cot, he started falling asleep on his own, took him about 20-30 minutes, sometimes longer. Yesterday, I read a post about how someone felt the baby could not asleep soon enough becuase he was distracted with the mum sitting there. I thought this was exactly what was happening with him, so I gave him the bottle and left the room. After he got done, he stood up and started crying, but it was the mantra cry! The first time ever I could distinguish his mantra cry. After a few seconds he stopped dropped down on his tummy and slept! I couldnt believe it, it took all of 2 minutes for him to sleep! I really hope I can continue it!

[~Sara~]

Okay--the little man is out for the night!  Thank goodness (we're dealing with molars ).

First of all, I'm happy to hear that he did a long stretch last night.  Woohoo!  On the flip side, though, I think there are some things that still need to be tackled--and we need to get a bit tougher, considering his age bc the longer he has habits, the harder it will be to get rid of them.  I also think the key to more good nights and no EWs is getting his days figured out.

I still cant put my finger on it, I'm not sure what it is thats waking him up. His teeth were bothering him last week but not any more. Could it be that he needs a diaper change? I have never really changed his diaper at night for a while now, but in the morning it is really full. Or is it that he is UT? He's doing two long naps, in the AM and PM.

It's kind of hard to tell whether his nights are OT or UT, tbh.  It looks like his A times are either too short or too long, and he's getting a lot of daytime sleep on top of that.  When that happens, night sleep can be affected and can lead to EWs (yup, EWs can be either OT or UT).  I don't think he needs a diaper change, tbh, unless he's leaking through his diaper.  If not, I'd leave him be so that you've cut out any stimulation that you can during the NWs, iykwim.

His morning A is 3h15 give n take, the second A is really short, sometimes he's sleepy after an A of 2h, usually only 2h30. The third A is 3h30 or 3h45. In case he is UT, should I cut the AM or PM nap?

You mentioned that you have to help him transition during his first nap.  You shouldn't have to at this age.  He should be able to take long naps on his own.  How long into his nap does he wake up?  Are you in his room when he does?  What if you were to just leave him to resettle?

I'm wondering if he's now ready to push that first A time out a bit more, say, to 3h25-30.  The second A time is really too short for his age.  Yes, it's true that not all A times have to be the same length; but a 45 minute difference is too wide a swing, I think.  Sometimes babies can act sleepy out of habit, especially at this age.  If that's the time he's always had a nap, then he'll probably be more inclined to show sleepy cues then.  Granted, he takes a long nap; but I wonder if he could do a touch more...say, ~3h (and we can up this after a few days if needed).

I think his last A time is too long for him just yet, and that's why he's waking at night.  I know it's longer so that he can get to bed at a later time.  I think by extending the previous 2 A times, that last one will be closer to the others and his whole day will be more in-line.  So, tomorrow, how about trying something like this (adjust wake-up time to his):

Awake at 6
E: bottle, solids 1h later
A: 3h30
S: 9:30-11 (1.5h)
E: bottle, solids 1h later
A: 3h
S: 2-3:30 (1.5h)
E: however you do your late afternoon/evening feeds
A: 3h30
S: bedtime at 7

So, that's an overall day of ~13h, which is fairly long.  I wouldn't really go longer than this right now.  Also, I have a feeling that he'll need the second A time pushed out a bit more in the coming days, but for the next 2-3 days, try that above routine (remember, it doesn't have to be exactly on the dot, timing-wise, but a 15 min or so sway is okay).  If you could keep track and have your nanny keep track of his EAS for the next 2-3 days, that would be great so that we can have something to look back on.

Its just the naps that I still rock him. I know its not right, but I'm waiting for his 2-1 transition before I try to get him to sleep independently for naps, since I will have to only do it once a day and not twice!

To be honest, I wouldn't wait for this.  I'd tackle the independent sleeping now while he's still young.  Sure, it might be hard for a few days, but I can guarantee you that when you can just lay him down and leave the room, it's the best feeling in the world!  We weaned DS's swaddle at ~6.5 months, and it was rough for 3 days, but very worth it.  Now I know that when I need to APOP a nap or two, it won't upset the apple cart   I bet it will be easier than you think   And it's mainly about you being mentally prepared to go through with it.

And while we're on the topic of the 2-1 transition, it's actually a very gradual process that can take months to happen.  For some babies, it starts off with them refusing to nap after a certain time of the day (sounds like what Emma went through).  For others (like me), A times got too high to have 2 x 1.5h naps, so we had to start cutting back on sleep.  There are 2 approaches (usually) to this.  One is the short AM/long PM; the other is the long AM/short PM.  It all depends on the LO.  In either case, A times need to be up ~5h each to handle dropping to 1 nap.  So, I think your LO has a long ways to go yet with this   But, once we get his days figured out, it may be that he does need less daytime sleep--but let's cross that bridge when we get to it

So, let me know what you think about all of this.  I know it's a lot, but Emma and I are here for you to help you through!  Really, you should be proud of yourself for how far you've come!  I'm am so happy that you're feeling better, too.  That is so important!  *hugs*

[~Emma~]

 So chuffed for you and your night sleep! It does make all the difference in the world.

 Just so you know it took us about 6/7 month to get through the 2-1 transition, it was a long road. I took it pretty slow as I didn't want to push it and end with a crazy OT cycle. He started showing signs about 11 months aof age and only reallt started doing 1 nap properly about 2 months ago.

 Regarding the w/d, well B just wont have me in the room for going to sleep. He's been like that since about 5 months old! He likes to do it himself, he's is uber spirited and I just seem to distract him from the prcess of getting to sleep. This may well be the case for your LO too.

 

[~Sara~]

Regarding the w/d, well B just wont have me in the room for going to sleep. He's been like that since about 5 months old! He likes to do it himself, he's is uber spirited and I just seem to distract him from the prcess of getting to sleep. This may well be the case for your LO too.

I've found that if DS knows I'm in the room with him, he wants me and won't go to sleep either.  Now, I only go in if his mantra cry has escalated.

[kk.tobe]

Hi there! Its been three nights and there have been no night wakings! Not even one! Wooohooooo!!!!!

I'm sooo excited! He still does EW, but I'm thinking maybe in a while that should change? Can I tackle EW independently? He is currently sleeping 10 hours at night and 2-3 hours during the day. Maybe he is just a 10 hour baby and I should try and push his bedtime back (slowly of course!)? THe night before he woke up at 4:45AM and did not settle back until 6AM (when I gave him his milk), He then only slept for 45 mins.  Last night it was 5:30 and he did not settle back at all, I tried for about an hour before giving up. It was a bit tiring to try and put a wide awake baby to sleep and frustrating, maybe I shouldn't try, esp since he seems like his day has started!

Taking up Sara's advice I did extend his morning A to 3h30 and his second A to 3h15 and it really did work. He was giving out signals of being sleepy during the second A previously, I realized it was a combination of the afternoon heat and being bored. Yesterday I had the air conditioning on, he seemed to be ok with a 3h15 A. Also, you are right about the 2-1 transition, I think it will be a while before he does it, since he's always needed a lot of sleep during the day.

I've also decided not to delay the independent sleeping for naps. Yesterday I rocked him a little bit, but put him down awake in the cot. He did not protest and promptly fell asleep. I'll try this for a while before deciding if I want to try PU/PD again. I'm not sure if it has something to do with putting him down awake, but he slept for about an hour each time, which usually does not happen. For some reason he always did not more than a 45 minutes nap, thats why I always helped him transition. Can you share your nap routine with me? Currently I have none, but maybe getting some sort of routine will send him the right signals to fall asleep on his own.

I'm so thrilled with all the sleep I'm getting! Fingers crossed!

[~Sara~]

I still think that the EW can be fixed with some routine tweaking, yes   I'd keep with slowly phasing out the rocking to sleep, with each day doing it less and less.  Then, at some point, you'll be able to do the wind down routine, and lay him down sleepy (it IS his nap time, after all)...and he'll drift off the rest of the way on his own.  Well done, though!  You should be proud of yourself!   And technically, though he's not made the switch to one nap, he could be starting the 2-1 transition--it's an actual term for the process of moving from two naps to one.

Could you go ahead and post what he did yesterday or today, depending on where you are (just a full 24h EAS) so that I can see what's going on?

I'm not completely sure what you mean about needing to see a nap routine.  What he's doing is his nap routine; it might need some tweaking to better suit his needs, but it's still a routine

Lastly, I notice that you're still feeding him upon waking up at 4-5am.  Have you tried not feeding him and how has it gone with giving him the bottle first thing in the AM?  I still want to make sure that we're shifting ALL his meals to the daytime.

Looking forward to your response!

[kk.tobe]

Hi Sara, I was giving LO his milk at 6:30AM when he was completely up, but the last two nights I gave it at 6, hoping he'd settle down for a lil longer, it happened once, didnt happen the other time. But I havent given him milk when he wakes up at 4:30 or even 5:30. His EASY yesterday was something like this

6:45AM - Awake/Play (had a bottle at 6)
8:00AM - Breakfast
10:00AM - Nap (1h5) No transitioning needed
11:05AM - Awake
11:30AM - EAT
2:30PM - Nap (1h15) With the help of transitioning twice
3:45PM - Awake
5:45PM - Dinner
7:30PM - Bath n bedtime (I intended this to be earlier but we had guests and he seemed ok)

So the first A was 3h15, the second A was 3h30 and the third A was 3h45. Does that sound about right? The previous days EASY was similar.

By nap routine I mean, something similar to bedtime routine - like changing them, reading a story, some music?

Also, today he's up from 5:30 and I have been following his EASY. Since his routine is shifted forward by almost an hour, should I let him take a catnap late afternoon or put him down for his bedtime really early? Only thing is I'm afraid he'll wake up even earlier!

E - 6AM/breakfast 8AM
A - 3h30
S - 1h
E - 11:30AM
A - 3h20

I just put him down for his second nap, in fact I gave him his milk and was typing out this message, and he fell asleep in the meantime! I think the bottle here is the prop of course, but he's never done that during nap time! Maybe the next few days I'll give him the bottle in advance and put him down groggy and leave the room. I'm so surprised he's sleeping so much better when I'm not there! How could I have not thought of this...the lil monkey feels a compulsion to perform for his mum!

[~Sara~]

By nap routine I mean, something similar to bedtime routine - like changing them, reading a story, some music?

Gotcha   It really depends on what your LO likes, tbh.  Some babies like/need their wind down routine to be really long, like 20 minutes long...they read stories, play quietly, get rocked and sing a lullaby and then get laid down in the crib and drift off on their own.  My DS is kind of in the middle; I start his wind down routine about 15 minutes before he needs to be asleep.  We read books for ~10 minutes, I put him in his sleep sack, we say goodnight to the light, turn on the fan, I sing "Twinkle, twinkle" once, say "Goodnight, I love you," and then I lay him in his crib 5 minutes before he needs to be asleep.  He does the rest himself.  That's our routine

Now, about your routine...
1) I wonder if we could extend that first A time some more.  How about bumping up to ~3h30 for the next couple of days and see how he does?  If he short naps again (anything less than 1h), let me know.  I know you did that yesterday, but let's try getting him used to that time to see if we need to bump it up a little bit more.  We want him to be tired enough to take a 1.5h nap.  When he does take a short nap like that first one, though, you have to shorten the next A time or else he'll get OT.  I still think OT is a problem here.  After a nap of 1h, he'll probably be ready to sleep at ~2h45-3h A time.  If he short naps after that shortened A time, then let me know.
2) What time into his 2nd nap was he waking up?  How did you resettle him?  Did you try hanging back and letting him resettle himself?  Like I mentioned in #1, I think he was OT.  LOs can't handle MORE A time on a short nap, you have to reduce it.

Since his routine is shifted forward by almost an hour, should I let him take a catnap late afternoon or put him down for his bedtime really early?

I would try to sneak a catnap in, tbh.  If you can get a 6:30 bedtime (or thereabouts) with a catnap, that might help steady things.

I just put him down for his second nap, in fact I gave him his milk and was typing out this message, and he fell asleep in the meantime! I think the bottle here is the prop of course, but he's never done that during nap time! Maybe the next few days I'll give him the bottle in advance and put him down groggy and leave the room.

Do you normally give him a bottle right before he sleeps?

[kk.tobe]

Hi Sara! Thanks a lot!

He doesn't usually get his milk before nap, today for example it was after nap. It depends on his lunch time. If it's been a while since lunch then I give him before hoping he sleeps longer.

I'll try using the wind-down routine you suggested. Currently I have none, n that's another reason I think he finds tough to suddenly switch off.

Yesterday he had an A time of 3h30 in the morn abs took a 1h15 min morning nap. Today his morn A was less than 3h30 but he again slept for 1h15. Usually he always needed transitioning about 45 mins into his nap.

His second A is around 3H30 too. I tried to keep the last A at 3h45 but sometime it gets extended to 4h. For his second nap, I usually have to help transition, it's usually a 45 min nap that he takes, sometimes an hour but never more. I help extend it to 1h30 mins, sometimes after resettling he even does a 2h nap. I did try letting him resettle himself but he's always very upset when he wakes up, even shush/patt doesn't work. He cries until I pick him up, and then he promptly falls asleep in my arms.

The night before, he officially STTN for the very first time ever! No NW or EW! Last month if you told me this is possible I'd think you're off your rocker! But it is possible and has happened! Last night he woke by at 5:30am, but after 7-10 minutes of resettling, he was asleep again. I think he's finally ok with not gettin milk at night.

I think this is the time I should start the independent sleep training, esp with the naps. I will start this weekend. I'm gonna give Walk in/Walk out a try, since me being there just seems to distract him a lot!

[kk.tobe]

Another night STTN! Woooohooooo! I'm so kicked! Never felt this rested in a long time! And for the first time we (me and DH) were discussing plans for the second one! I'm still going to start the WI/WO for naps this weekend. Will let you know how it goes!

[~Emma~]

 

[~Sara~]

Woohoo!  Congrats on those good nights!  Well done   Keep us posted