Bad case of SA I think...Please help!

[katie80]

Oh, she is a touchy one, huh!  Glad to hear she's not screaming anymore, isn't that nice!!

So, here's what I see in what you posted about yesterday.  How long was she awake at 5:15 am?  If it was not long, then really 6 am was your wakeup and the 9:15 am nap was probably a little early, hence the quiet playing.  But then, at 10:15 am (so a 4 hr 15 min A), you got a really long nap, and it's not surprising she didn't go down for another CN in the afternoon.

What I would try then, is either stick with the longer nap and push it out a little every few days as ahk has suggested, or go with the morning CN (for probably 20 or 30 min) at about 4 hr or 4 hr 15 min A, and then do your afternoon nap about 3 hrs after waking.  How does that sound?

I even tried to AP her a bit in my bed today with nursing but she just doesn't sleep well anywhere else other than her bed unfortunately.

 

And I'd be really careful with this.  If she's not ill or teething, every time I AP my DD (other than the car rides), she expects the same thing next time and I'm stuck doing WIWO again.  I really think this is just a case of finding the right times now that she's got the settling down again!

[alohahellokitty]

Yes I'd be careful with bfing as a ap if she's not ill or teething. Even then I'd be very careful. I know from my experience this is the hardest ap to break. As its so comforting and lo's start to demand it every time.

I'm with Katie. I think getting her A times better might help out. I think since you've got her settling by herself, just some tweaking the A times.

[alohahellokitty]

Oh btw I think this was about the time when my lo's sleepy signs were a bit different and became harder to read. What about pushing back her A times a little and seeing how she does?

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

I think you are onto something! I will have to try it tomorrow. Last night we had the first NWing in 4 months!! She couldn't resettle herself so she cried and I finally went in there and picked her up to cuddle her and give her Tylenol as I thought maybe something is hurting her. I really DO think something is off. It's either teething or ear infection and I'm actually going into the doc today to see if it IS ear infection. After the short cuddling and Tylenol, I put her back in bed and she fought sleep and cried for another hour and finally went down after 2.5 hours of being up! I think this is either from pain or from being SO OT... She was then up at 450 a.m. and though I left her in there to whine until 6 she never went back to sleep so I got her up.

I opted to put her down early since she had been up since 450 so I put her own at 9 and she went to sleep in 5 minutes, so the timing was right because she was obviously tired. Since she barely had any night sleep, I let her sleep for however long she wanted:

450 Wake
905-1025
145 (tried putting her down and it's now 2:20 and she's still stop/start crying and whinining.)

I think that even though I want to try to get her OT caught up by letting her sleep maybe I just need to wake her after 30 minutes in the a.m. and let her have a long p.m .becuase I"m finding it's really hard to determine her A time after a long nap in the morning. She keeps fighting her p.m. nap...

Do you think this is a good plan? Not let her catch up on sleep in the a.m. but rather in the p.m.? It's hard to judge right A times when she's OT...

Thanks Ladies, you are helping me so much!

One thing that is so frustrating is that she will just stand in the corner of her crib and just stop/start cry for a VERY long time. I literally sat in tears last night because after the Tyelnol she was crying hard but it was cry and stop and cry and stop so i never really went back in until she feel asleep after an 1.5 hours...I felt SO bad because she was crying but it wasn't a consistent cry...I hope i figure out her A soon and get this resolved..it's painful to see her this way.

Thanks.

[alohahellokitty]

I think its very good that you are taking her to the dr to rule out any ear infections and such! I had some similar trouble with lo #1 a few months back and it was a ear infection. So you are doing the right thing!!

You might try limiting her morning nap to 30 min to see if you can get a more restorative longer nap in the pm. Give it a try tomorrow and see how it goes. I would not limit her pm nap. Just let her get whatever amount of sleep she needs!

This OT cycle is horrible to break. Especially if there's ear infections or teething involved!

I don't know how your lo acts with pain but I'm wondering if that's not the case. How does your lo act with ot nw'ings? Is it brief? Every lo is different. My lo's OT NW'ings are pretty short and its basically a party in her crib. She talks and sings, plays with her stuffed animals exc......... But if its pain or something else its screaming, ,crying exc....... Now she does cry if she cant get back to sleep if its a OT NW'ing but that's after a while of talking and singing. If its a pain nwing its no talking but just crying and screaming.

Maybe you can think back to some pain nwings and ot nwings to differentiate the difference.

Also if its pain you might try motrin (ibuprofen) as this is a great pain reliever and also a anti-inflammatory. I think it works WAy better than tylenol for ear infections and teething.

You know your lo better than anyone so make sure first to rule out pain.

Good luck and let us know how the Dr apt goes!!

[Tao]

Hi ALK,

Thank you so much for caring! We just got back from the doc and it looks like there is no ear infection. She is completely healthy in fact so the DR thinks that it might indeed be teething. She just got her top right tooth and her left one looks a bit swollen so I'm thinking it's just that...

I finally picked her up after 50 minutes of crying and fighting her p.m. nap and took her into the car to see if maybe a miracle would happen =); but, no luck. She just plays and whines in the carseat so I put her down for a super early 5 a.m. BT. Tomorrow I will definitely just wake her after 30 minutes in hopes to go back to our old schedule. Boy do I miss those two naps!!

Regarding her NWing, now that you had me reflect on it, I DO think it's pain related as she usually goes back on her own no problem. The other thing I was thinking too is that she woke from a bad dream maybe? I've read that this age group tends to have dreams and it seemed like she suddenly woke and just started screaming from there, whereas usually she'll whine, roll around and go back after 10 minutes or so. I've never had to go in at night after she turned a year. The thing that is really difficult is that it's VERY hard to get her to go back down when she does wake at night for any reason. When she wakes up, if I need to go in and comfort for pain, I will usually pick her up and rock her until she is completely asleep on me but the minute I put her down (since she is touchy) she wakes up screaming. So, in the past, when she was sick, I would do this over and over and over again and every time I put her down she would wake.

While I know that we shouldn't WIWO when they are sick, that was the only thing i could do (and GW) in order to get her to go back to sleep otherwise I would be holding her to sleep all night. That's the only tough thing is that she's so sensitive and anything wakes her so it's tough to get her to go down comfortably without the crying.

I wonder what other mommies with sensitive babies do. When they're sick, I want to AP and cuddle her to sleep but I can never get her to stay asleep unless its in my bed with me.

I will keep my fingers crossed for tomorrow's schedule. Also, Katie, I think you have a good point about when she goes back to sleep in the morning it may be restorative enough to increase her A time. Usually I think she is up for 15 minutes and goes back down for 15-20 minutes. This week I will just get her up when she first wakes up to get her back on track because when she falls back asleep it's hard to judge her A time. Is she still tired from initially waking at 5 or did she get enough rest to count it as 6? You know?

Thanks again Ladies. You have been soooo encouraging!

[alohahellokitty]

Glad to hear she doesn't have a ear inf!! That's wonderful! Sounds like teething.

Have you tried motrin instead of tylenol? I also use orajel at night as its a INSTANT pain reliever. And it gives my lo's enough time (of pain relief) for the motrin to kick in and help them stay down.

TBH my lo #1 is sooooooooooooo touchy/sensitive sounds just like yours!! She will NOT let us do GW its impossible. What I do when its teething or some type of pain is to comfort and treat with meds at night by:

Teething: give motrin and apply a coat or two of orajel. Then I hold her and sing her lullaby next to the crib. I try to lay her down after 1 minuet. If she holds on and won't let me I then will hold her and sing it for 2-3 minuets and then try to lay her down. Usually she will go right back in after the orajel b/c it immediately numbs the pain. If she won't then I give a little more comfort. If after 20 minuets she won't go back in I do a gentle wi/wo approach with her. I lay her down even though crying and hold my hand on her for a few seconds, then I walk out. If she needs me I go back and tell her I love her and the meds will kick in soon to help her. I lay my hand back on her back. I do that trying to do more verbal comforting. If she gets beside herself and I know its pain I just sit back (only happened once in her whole life) in a rocker and let her doze off on me. And YES she wakes when I lie her back down, it becomes a vicious cycle.

If its a ear infection: I give motrin and use numbing ear drops. They take 5-8 minuets to relieve the pain so I stay with her for that time if she needs me. I hold her next to her crib and sing to her during that time.

With all that said, I always try to immediately lay her down after giving meds. I only hold a little longer as described if she needs it. And sometimes after teething/illnesses I have to use wi/wo to get her back on track. She's just soooooooooooooooooooooo touchy/spirited.

You might put a pallet on the floor if she won't go down after the meds and let her lie with you if she's in severe pain. This would of course be a last resort for sure. I would NOT bring her to bed with you if you can prevent it. Touchy babies get very addicted to this and its terrible to break!! I let my lo#1 nap with me in my bed during her last ear infection and it was HELL trying to break it!!!!!!!!!!

[katie80]

Sorry it's so tough for you, Christine!  I do think it's probably a combination of OT and teething, and it's hard to break out of that sometimes. 

So, yesterday, again because she slept 1 hr 20 in the morning, I think it was too early to put her down at 1:45 pm and that's what made the afternoon nap a struggle.  I think you can go back to the 30 min morning nap and then let her sleep as long as she wants in the afternoon, like ahk has suggested.  Or, what I sometimes did was go for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, to help catch up from OT.  So, whatever the morning A was, seemed to work again for my LO after an hour nap. 

Wake:  5 am
Nap:    9:00 - 9:30 am
Nap:   12:30/12:45 - 2:30/2:45 (or whenever)
Bed:    6:30 pm

OR

Wake:  5 am
Nap:     9:00 - 10:00 am
Nap:     2:00 - 3:00 pm
Bed:     7 pm

I also have a LO who will wake at the second of being put down if she falls asleep on me in the middle of the night.  And before doing WIWO recently, during her molars and incisors, there were a couple nights she was up 3 hrs or ended up sleeping with one of us on the couch.    Not fun.  What I do now, is much like ahk has described.  Go in, give meds, cuddle for a bit, sing our bedtime song, and lay her back down.  I then proceed with WIWO.  It usually works well (i.e. not much crying after the BIG one to get me to stay with her  ), and now during canines, she knows what will happen, and is usually back to sleep within 20-30 min of waking.   

However, when she was ill, I would rub her back or put my hand on her to just give her that extra help.  So, if you're really feeling she needs it, I would try that or lying down next to her crib (either with her or without), before bringing her into bed.  Of course, you will do what you think is best for her and you, and we will support you either way, but after being there, I think both of us know it's harder to get out of some of that AP. 

It's so tough to hear them cry, I know.  What I always repeat to myself is that 'she needs the sleep, she needs the sleep' and with me doing some sort of AP, she just doesn't get the same quality sleep she needs. 

Let us know how your day goes today!  Hoping for the best!

[Tao]

Update! So, I think it was definitely teething. I gave her some meds this morning as she woke up very fussy and after 40 minutes, she was playful and back to her old self. I think her top front tooth is trying to break through. She was playing happily and then I tried putting her down at 9 a.m. This is what our morning schedule looked like:

455 a.m. Wake
9:00 Tried putting her down. She stood up screaming in the corner of the bed and again is standing with intermittent wailing and whining. I have not gone in because again she'll wail and then whine on and off. Yesterday she went down right away at 9 a.m. but it's also because she was up for 3 hours in the middle of the night so she was obviously tired. Today, she's fighting her morning nap again and I'm wondering if it's just a fluke or if it means she needs more A time (9:30)? maybe. It's been 45 minutes and I am about to go in and get her and try again later.

Not quite sure a this point since she's had pain meds, she lay on me during wind down but popped right back up the minute I set her down...Yesterday she was completely quiet every time I put her down in her crib...

Hmmm...

[alohahellokitty]

Wow this is a tough one!! Maybe a little more A then?

If my lo isn't in pain and I have her A time off a little she usually plays for a bit before she drifts off. So I'm guessing teething is probably the case. I know you've said before that she will happily play, sing or talk to herself for a bit before drifting (if A time is slightly off).

Have you tried a teething gel? I'm a HUGE fan of them as they are immediate.

[katie80]

I think a teething gel is worth a try, especially since you'd given the meds after she woke up.  There wasn't enough time in between to give more meds, but they could've been starting to wear off.     My LO does NOT like the gels and it turns into a big game with her and I never get them in the right place anyway, but I know a lot of people who like them. 

And now that you're pretty confident it's teeth, I'd try to give her some other type of relief (i.e. a cold washcloth to chew on or an ice cube in one of those little mesh bags) during the morning and save the pain meds for about 45 min before a nap.  That way, she has the best chance of being comfortable at that time. 

As far as the A time goes, you could be right that she went down better yesterday because she'd been awake so long at night.  I'd only try adding on 15 min though, not 30, that seems like a little too much for her age.  I still think around 4 hr to 4 hr 15 min is probably best for her.

[Tao]

It's been a tough day ...sigh...

Yesterday, she refused every nap I tried to put her down for. Before each nap I gave her Motrin about 40 minutes before but I think it's teething+SA+ OT all rolled up in a very big ball. Finally for the third nap refusal, DH picked her up and held her to sleep for 115 minutes. I told DH that this could create a habit, but he said she really needed some type of sleep. Then she went down for BT completely quietly and awake. I dont' get it. She never fights BT but naps are horrid!

Last night she ended up fall asleep at 7:30 p.m. but woke at 4:30 a.m. and whined until I got her at 5:30. She had a fever of 103, yesterday it was 102 fever but the doc said it was prob related to teething and just give her Motrin which worked. So today, I gave her motrin in the a.m. again but she was still fussy really with the motrin. I am going to buy orajel today.

5:30 Wake
9:30 Try ot put her down for a nap and it's 1010 and she's still fighting it. Up until now, I have NOT had to go back in because it's always start stop but this morning it was quite bad so I counted 10 seconds and walked in to say my phrase. She went ballistic. She started shaking the railings and hopping up and down frantically. I kept going in after another 10 seconds only if it was continuous. I knew she had pain meds, but she just really wanted me. Plus I think it was bad because I never went in before, it was always my DH that did it.

DH thinks WIWO won't work after hearing her frantic this morning, so he thought I should go in and sit there like GW again but I think since she knows how to go down, I don't htink I should change it.

I have never had her SO off before. I'm trying not to get into the hump of AP, and am trying to give meds and still keep same routine but it's tough. She just stands in the corner and if i don't go in it will be whining and stop start crying for an hour until I get her EVERY TIME! If I DO go in, she still stands but is much more frantic and shaking hte bed.

I don't know how to make it better and just want to cry.

[Tao]

Oh, I also wanted to mention that I think it's SA related and not so much the time being off persay because this morning whilst getting her ready for her nap she almost fell asleep! So, I know she was tired enough the but the minute i put her into bed, she fought like crazy. She's just fighting her nap and wanting me..

[alohahellokitty]

Oh this is no good. I remember this! Exactly as it happened for close to a month with me. It was OT, SA and terrible teething + ear infection. It was the worst tornado ever!! Plus baby lo here too. DH would come home every night and I would be crying. It was VERY rough! I think the hardest thing since she's been born! And she was a very difficult baby.

A couple things.
#1 I was told by my lo's dr that anything over 100-101 is not teething and is another illness. (virus or bacterial inf)
#2 tylenol reduces fever better than motrin, but motrin is better for pain (according to Dr)
#3 I think you are in the midst of terrible SA along with other things that make her want you more. When we were having terrible SA my lo went down easily for bt b/c she was so exhausted she just passed out once her head hit the sheets (after avoiding naps all day). So that's normal. Naps are hell but bt's seems better. I'm not sure of your schedules, but anytime DH can put her down its usually better. My lo would go down for anyone but me, she just wanted to be with me so badly.

I've had DD fall asleep behind me and a rocking chair while I was nursing lo #2 (minuets after refusing a nap). I've had her fall asleep on my bed while I was trying to get her to have some quite play if she would not nap. (these were both instances during that terrible time) And the minuet I'd lay her in her bed she's go bonkers and wake up screaming refusing to go back to sleep.

This would be much easier if she would fall asleep in the car so you could AP at least one nap a day without her getting 'addicted' to it and demanding it each time. If this goes on for much longer and she gets much more OT or is getting sick you might start thinking about a GW. I know that's the LAST thing you want to hear!! Trust me! I KNOW!! My lo will NOT do any gw, so its not a option here. But if she's truly sick and is getting out of control with the OT you might have to do some type of GW and just wean it after she's better and the SA is fading away.

I'd get some orajel on there to see if that can provide her a little relief. TBH I'm wondering if there isn't in fact something else going on with her. If her ears are clear than that's not it. Has she been coughing, colored mucous or any other symptoms other than fever?

What is her schedule like? Is she with sitters or nursery during the week? What's DH's schedule like? Just wondering so I can help you figure out how to help her get through this a bit quicker.

[alohahellokitty]

Oh another thing I did A LOT of during this phase (we are still in it a bit but on our way almost out of it now, THANK GOD!) is use my words to comfort as much as possible.

I'd use LOTS and LOTS of warnings that nap time is coming up. I'd keep repeating it for about 30 minuets before she was to lay down. 'we will play for a few minuets then its lunch then nap time with bearbear.' ' we are eating lunch now then after lunch its nap time with bearbear'. 'we are cleaning up lunch now then its diaper change and nap time with bearbear' ' we are changing your diaper now so we are headed up stairs for nap with bear bear'. ' its nap time, here's your bearbear, I love you and mommy will come and get you when nap time is over'. Then I'd begin wi/wo with  'its just nap time, mommy is still here and will come and get you when its over' exc........

I try to tell her that mommy loves her SOOOOOOO much and will always be back to get her when we are apart.

She used to panic and follow me around freaking out about wanting to be held constantly exc........ I really gave her SOOOOOOOOOOOO much reassurance for over a month. I carried her and baby LO up and down the stairs, room to room exc........... Then my knees started hurting from it all and I was emotionally exhausted from constantly being OVER THE TOP with the reassurance. I told her that mommy's knees hurt and we'd have to hold hands around the house and up and down the stairs but Mommy would LOVE to sit down on the couch or floor and hold her for lots of cuddle time. I did extra cuddle time often until she didn't need it as much and became more disinterested.

Let us know how its going so we can help you!!

And take care of yourself during this phase. Its a VERY rough one!!!