Bad case of SA I think...Please help!

[katie80]

So sorry, Christine!  Lots of (((hugs)))!!  A few things pop out at me when I read this.  (Ok, ahk posted while I did, and I think we have some similar advice, but I'm still going to post in case anything helps.  Sorry it's so long!)

Finally for the third nap refusal, DH picked her up and held her to sleep for 115 minutes. I told DH that this could create a habit, but he said she really needed some type of sleep. Then she went down for BT completely quietly and awake. I dont' get it. She never fights BT but naps are horrid!

I know we've been encouraging you to be careful with the AP, but I tend to agree with your DH here.  She must be sooo tired!  It's really a bummer you can't drive her around for a few days, because this sounds exactly like what we went through with my DD at Christmas time.  It was right before she got her molars and I had tried a couple one nap days because I just didn't know what else to do, so she got really OT.  We were up at my ILs for the week and she would scream every time I put her in the crib for a nap, so we'd end up taking her out for a drive.  But, when I went to lay her down for BT, she went in like a charm and was asleep within minutes.  It really is strange!  But I think that nap Sophie got with your DH was enough to take just the edge off the OT, so she went down well for BT.

5:30 Wake
9:30 Try to put her down for a nap and it's 1010 and she's still fighting it.

So, this is really OT refusal, I think, because she had really been up since 4:30 am.  And with the missed naps yesterday and a short night, the OT is just building up.  With teeth (+ a little OT), when I'm off by just 15 min with my DD, she can have a hard time settling.  It happened last night at bedtime (took 30 mins of on/off screaming, mantraing) and today at nap (took 15 mins of the same).  It's so hard to go through, and I kick myself for getting her in bed late, but sometimes no matter how hard I try, she is able to drag it out a little.     I think I would have tried to put her down more at 8:30 or 8:45 am here.  Because she has had a couple naps here and there that have been successful, I do think she can do it.

I knew she had pain meds, but she just really wanted me. Plus I think it was bad because I never went in before, it was always my DH that did it.

DH thinks WIWO won't work after hearing her frantic this morning, so he thought I should go in and sit there like GW again but I think since she knows how to go down, I don't htink I should change it.

So, I think you have a couple options at this point.  I really don't think it should matter who is doing the WIWO; she may have to get used to you doing it, but if you're consistent, it should be fine.  However, if she is really struggling with her teeth and a fever and SA, then I might be tempted to try GW.  Yes, I know she does know how to do it, but she's having a really tough time and it's been at least a week with not much improvement.  My DD doesn't do well when I'm in the room, even if she's frantically screaming for me.  Once I'm there she just wants to interact and it makes the whole process longer.  But, it may be worth a try in your case.  I think she's taking so long to settle because she's pretty OT, but there are other things involved which makes it harder.

Lastly, you may just give in to doing whatever you can to get her some sleep for the next few days, even if it means some AP.  If only the car would work for you, that's what I'd be doing for sure.  I know this is probably anti-BW advice, but once she isn't so OT, I think she'll probably respond to WIWO (or GW for that matter) better.  It may be harder when you start again, so it may not be worth it.  But, she's got to be just extremely tired at this point.

[Tao]

After reading both of your posts, you brought me to tears. You have never even met me but have been such a support and I thank you for that.

ALK, you were right! After DH was saying it's teething, I knew it my gut that something else was wrong, like you said, so I took her to the doc again today. This doc looked in her throat which the other doc didn't and said that her throat was super red and that she has viral pharyngitis. This explains so much, the fact that she stands and whines for SOOO long whereas she can usually settle herself after no more than 20 minutes or so. Also, she has been refusing fluids because I think it hurts her when she swallows and today her fever went up to 103.5.

After a rough morning...her day finally went like this:

4:30/5:30 Wake
1020-1035 Sleep (It took her an hour of my WI/WO to finally go down and then she had an OT nap. Katie you were right I should have put her down much earlier given the super early wake up.)
2:00-235 (I was praying the entire time while winding her down. I took her advice ALK and kept telling her it's sleepy with bear bear soon etc. She was so tired she knocked out. I was hoping for a longer nap but no such luck.)
555 BT (Went down right away)

I'm hoping we don't have super early wake ups tomorrow morning again so she can get more rest. The doc said she can't really give any meds since it's viral so we have to wait it out and give her Motrin for comfort. Tomorrow I will try the naps again and be more conservative if she has an early wake up, I will try to put her down much earlier. I think I will try to have DH do WIWO tomorrow as he's had success with it a few months ago when we first implemented it. She's not as attached to him as she is with me. I had NEVER seen her so frantic ever before like she was today when I walked in. I hadn't had to walk in all week due to the start/stop cry so when I did today she was freaking out. It sort of scared me a bit because I had never seen her like that before but then again my DD is very touchy and upsets easily. I remember GW working when she was much younger but after she turned 11 months she would just play peek aboo with us when we sat in the chair and told her to sleep. It was cute but very annoying =).

Okay, you Ladies gave me hope and it helps so much knowing exactly what's wrong. I think my plan of action will be this:

1) Try two naps again tomorrow, earlier a.m. nap if she wakes early. If need be, I will have DH go in and do WIWO.
2) If she refuses first nap and then second nap, I may have DH just hold her again for second nap to get SOME kind of sleep in so OT can calm down a bit especially if she wakes early again tomorrow. She's been having such short nights.
3) I may just need to cave in and let her sleep in our arms just to get caught up and then deal with the consequences of retraining her later if it gets to that. I don't know if I can handle this for several more weeks. I've been so emotional.

AHK, to answer your questions. My DH is a SAHD, he has been with her at home since she was born and I am a teacher so I would work during the day and come home and be the one to put her to bed at night. The crazy thing is before all this happened, she slept fairly well. She would always have two naps. Her schedule looked roughly like this:

5:30 Wake
9:40-1010 Sleep
2:00-3:15 Sleep
6:30/7:00 BT

It worked really well and she would only take maybe 20 minutes to go down at most for him. Then, I was off work for the summer break and everything changed. SA became really bad and I started to be the one to put her down for naps as opposed to my husband. I think this set her off because she wasn't used to spending so much time with me and then when I put her down she was thinking, "No, I want to spend more time with you..." So that started the beginning of last week, and for the entire week it's taken her an hour or so to go down. I'm wondering if her illness gradually started around then and is full blown now although she really didn't develop the high fever until yesterday. She would just whine and stand in the corner like I had mentioned in all my posts, which is soo odd. Almost like she is fighting sleep and wants to wait for the hour until I come in to get her.

However, now I'm not sure if she is waiting for me or if is really is just not feeling well because of her throat. She does tend to be more clingy when she's not feeling well.

I'm just praying htat after she feels better, she will start sleeping again and that this is just a phase due to illness. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Now, my DH and I are both at home all day with her, so that is a big change for her too.

Thanks again!!!

Christine

[alohahellokitty]

Christine,

I'm so glad Katie and I could help you! We've both been there and done that. Its soooooooooooo hard and frustrating when your in the midst of it.. and can't figure out what to do.

The reason I thought something else was going on is b/c she was acting the same as my lo a month back. This is very hard....... Illness, SA, OT and teething. Its QUITE the perfect storm I can assure you!

I would give motrin to keep her comfortable as you are doing. I would also try to keep her hydrated to prevent a hospital trip. With high fevers they can dehydrate very fast. I would get the pedilyte popcycles. My LO loves them, she either eats them whole or I cut them up and put them in a sippy cup. One time she was so delirious I had to feed it to her with a medication syringe. If she gets near 103 again I would cool her down with a bath or wet wash cloth bath (my dad is a dr and says when it gets to 103 it can be very dangerous to the brain of a child). I would also rotate the tylenol (along with the motrin) if her fever is high. As tylenol is better at reducing fever, but motrin is better at pain reduction/anti inflammation. Honey is very helpful to the throat (if she's over a year old) to soothe it. Try to keep her comfortable/hydrated and she'll do just fine.

Your plan sounds great!!! I think if you keep the structure you have planned and remain flexible she'll do just great!

I can REALLY relate to praying the WHOLE time during wind down!! LOL!! I've done that sooooooo many times!!!

Yes AP if you need to help her get some sleep she NEEDS it!!! But I would keep your plan first, hopefully it works out. You might be surprised. I would keep reminding her over and over and over again starting a hour before the nap. This seems to help my lo as she's VERY touchy.

She needs your comfort right now and if your plan doesn't work out you might have to AP some to get her recovered. And then deal with the reverberations after she's well. (ie. a good dose of wi/wo)

That's awesome your husband is able to be a SAHD. Its probably why she responds so well to him doing wi/wo. The SA is probably way worse b/c of how terrible she feels right now... and of course the change in your schedule. She probably LOVES you being home all the time, but being a touchy baby is very sensitive to change. I agree with you about her wanting to spend more time with you instead of being put down for a nap.

YES I think it is a phase due to her illness. She WILL start sleeping again! I promise! She has a great foundation of sleeping well and will return to it once she's better. I know I ALWAYS worry about this when we are in the midst of it with lo #1!!

Keep her hydrated, comfortable and try to make sure that fever is down! Get her some sleep and AP if you have to.

Keep us posted on how she's doing and if you need any help.

[katie80]

Ok, posted at same time as ahk, again!  Great minds think alike!    Here it is:

Oh, poor little thing!  ((Hugs)) to all of you!!  I'm sure a tiny part of it might be the change of you being home, Christine, but really I think it's the illness and OT that's causing all the problems.  

I think your plan is really good.  It always makes me feel better to have a plan!!  Definitely go with shorter A's because even if her night is not interrupted, she's still built up a lot of OT.  And with meds, I think it's ok for your DH to try WIWO, but if it's more of the same, I really wouldn't hesitate to get her the help she needs to fall asleep right now.  

She obviously is not feeling well and most likely NEEDS you!  Think about how you would feel in that situation, you'd want some comfort too!  (I'd go for lots of ice cream if it were me!   )  But, LOs like the comfort of their parents.  It's how they're wired!  If it helps you feel better, up until just recently, if my DD truly needed the help, I never became a prop.  She would go back to sleeping independently once she was better.  And if Sophie doesn't, at least you'll know you helped her when she needed you and then you can retrain.  I'm thinking it'll go much better once she's feeling better!

After reading both of your posts, you brought me to tears. You have never even met me but have been such a support and I thank you for that.

Awww, thanks Christine!  That's what we're here for and why I love this site!!  I'll be praying Sophie feels better soon!!

[alohahellokitty]

LOL!! Yes Katie, great minds do think alike!!

[Tao]

It worked! You were right! I put her down much earlier today for her a.m. nap seeing that she woke up at 445. I put her down at 850 and she was down quietly by 855. I think she just really doesn't do well if she's OT for bed especially if she doesn't feel well. Also, fever was much better this morning...101.3. I still gave her some Motrin before bed and gave her lots of liquids this morning. You were right AHK, she was so thirsty and probably on the verge of dehydration.

Also, an hour before bed, I kept telling her it's going to be bed time. I kept reminding her and even got her bearbear ready and told him that it would be HIS bedtime too. I think this really helped to prepare her. Before I thought she probably wouldn't understand, but she's very receptive now and the more repetition and preparation, I think, the better.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether to let her sleep until whenever this a.m. or wake her after 30 minutes so that she'll sleep for the p.m. If I let her sleep until whenever now, I run the risk of her not going down for p.m. nap which will cause more OT once again. Hmmm...I think I may just wake her and then maybe give her 3:15 minute A time before next nap.

Thank you for all your great advice and for weathering the storm with me. I pray it will be a calmer day. I need some downtime!

Fondly,
Christine

[alohahellokitty]

Hi Christine,

So glad its going better!!! Katie is MUCH better at the whole A time thing then me. So maybe she can weigh in for you on what to do.

All I can say is my LO's can't handle as much A time when teething or ill. So we go with less A time, longer naps and earlier bedtimes. For instance we were on our way to lo#1's nursery (she goes 2 days a week for 5 hours a day) and she fell asleep at 9am! And this was after waking at 7:10am!! I just drove around and let her doze for 20 minuets before I dropped her off. She's teething her canines (worst teeth.. they are EVIL!) She went to bed at 6pm last night (usual bedtime is 7:30 on non teething/illness nights) she was screaming for her 'MILK' (which is her sippy of warm milk she has before bed). When she asks for this she's  begging to be put to bed. So she had less than 2 hour A time and was already exhausted. That being said, I've got a high sleep needs lo #1. #2 doesn't seem as high needs.

When they are running even a slight temp their body is burning off a lot of the water/fluids you give them. So I always try to really hydrate them when they are running a fever, especially a high one!

Good job about communicating nap time. I know even though she's still so little they really get it. Especially if you get their lovey/stuffed animal involved. We used to tell her that bearbear is exhausted and so tired that he needs to take a nap. And she needs to help him take one. LOL!! It was so funny. She totally understood even at such a young age.

I'm sure today is going to be a better day!!! Take care of that sweet girl and yourself!! Enjoy your summer!! My Mom and sister-n-law are teachers. (mom is retired now) They really love it! Thanks for shaping the kids of this next generation.

Oh one more thing......... My lo#1 has been ill back to back and our pediatrician told us to start her on some pro-biotics. They help the body fight off bacterial or viral infections better and if they do get them.... its much shorter as their body fends them off faster. I don't know if your into health food type stuff, but this is great. She's been healthy ever since. I give her some tablets and lo #2 gets it in powder form in his rice cereal. They can be found in the childrens section at  any health food store.

[katie80]

Oh, great news, Christine!!  So glad she went down well this morning!!  That OT is really a nap killer!!  So, you've already made your decision about the nap, but I'll give my 'two cents'. 

I think it will backfire at this point to let her sleep as long as she wants in the morning.  It just seems so hard for you to get another nap in, and then it's an early BT, which just continues the cycle, iykwim.  So, I think I've typed this before, but these are two options I did.

The first is basically what you already mentioned, 30 min am nap, followed by a 3 hr to 3 hr 15 min A, then nap as long as she'd like in the afternoon.  So,

Wake  5:00 am
Nap 1  9:00 - 9:30 am
Nap 2  12:45 - whenever (hopefully 2:30 or 3:00 pm)
Bed     Somewhere between 6 and 7 pm depending on pm nap.

The second option is to go for 2 one hour naps, which I felt was needed if my LO had had a long NW and the 30 min wouldn't do it for her in the morning.  I didn't tend to go this route very often, but sometimes needed to, and it helped.

Wake  5:00 am
Nap 1  9:00 - 10:00 am
Nap 2  2:00 - 3:00 pm (or even 3:30 if you want)
Bed     7:00 pm (could be 6:45 pm if she only does the one hour nap or 7:15 if she does the 1.5 hour nap)

These will help you stretch the day out a little as well, so hopefully once she catches up and feels better, she can start to sleep a little longer in the morning. 

I think you're doing a great job with communicating about nap time.  I found around 14 - 18 mo, this really helped my DD prepare for transitions during the day, and it still does. 

I hope the day is going better!  Let us know how it goes!   

[Tao]

Yippeee!!! Two for two today. I took her advice of a short 30 minute and long p.m. nap and it worked. We'll see how long she sleeps but for now I am just thrilled that she went down quietly and RIGHT AWAY! I am going down for a nap myself now =). Thanks mommas!

[anna*]

Wow, what a great outcome. I am a BIG fan of the short am long pm nap. When we used to try it the other way around, too often he would skip the pm nap altogether and be a mess by mid afternoon.

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

3 for 3. She had perfect naps and bedtime tonight. She was still really fussy today and in a lot of pain but the meds I gave her helped...It's so hard when they can't tell you what's wrong isn't it? I get frustrated and poor baby gets frustrated. Though I don't want her to grow up too fast, I will definitely be ecstatic when she can tell me what's wrong!

Thanks again,
Christine

[alohahellokitty]

Oh how great!!! 3 for 3 is fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give her plenty of hugs and she'll start feeling better in no time.

Yes it is soooooooooooooo frustrating when they can't talk.

Keep us posted on how she's doing!!

[katie80]

Oh, Christine, that is GREAT news!!  I'm so glad to hear it.      I'd stick to that routine, then.  When she starts to feel better and if it seems it's not working as well, then you'll just need to add a little A time, but slowly, so she doesn't get OT. 

She's probably really close in the 2-1, but teething and illness can set them back a lot.  I'd stick with the two as long as possible and try to push out your day a little, so hopefully she'll sleep a little longer in the morning, before going to one nap.

Keep us posted!!!

[Tao]

Yipee!! Another two good naps =). She whined a bit before going down, but went down in 3 minutes. We saw the doc again today and I guess the virus she has gave her a rash on her tummy which has made her itchy. I've been giving her benadryl which I think is helping a lot. Last night she had SUCH a hard time sleeping, I think due to the rash. The first hour after falling asleep easily was constant wake ups and whining. Poor baby, but she managed to go to sleep for the rest of the night.

Odd thing, she woke at 5:30 a.m. this morning which was great but at about 8:30 started showing really tired signs and even tried falling asleep on daddy's shoulder so I took a "risk" and put her down at 9 even though her usual A time in the a.m. has been 4 hours, but she was able to sleep after 10 minutes. I guess she's still catching up from all the former OT and plus she didn't sleep well last night.

Quick question: Yesterday looked like this:

4:45 Wake
855-930 Nap
1:05-155 Nap
550 BT

Even before all the nap refusal happened quite frequently her p.m. nap would be short like 40-50 minutes of 1 hour. I'm wondering why that is. Do you think it's too much A time. I have tried 3 hours A time after a 30 minute a.m. but she would refuse it. Or, maybe it's not long enough? Don't know if I need a tweak here to get a longer p.m. nap...

Thank you for your support! I can't wait until the virus is over and I have my happy baby back =).

[alohahellokitty]

TBH Christine, I'm not quite sure about the A times. Maybe someone else can help with that.

I'm still at a loss for it most times. LO #1 is teething canines like crazy. She woke at 6:45 am (after going to sleep at 5:30pm.. her usual bt is 7:30) and was screaming for a nap at 11am. She napped until 12:30 and would not go back down. She was already beside herself with exhaustion by 3:30, so I put her down at 5pm. So as you can see I have NO idea when they are sick or teething, how to figure A times. Plus all lo's have different sleep needs.

I think most lo's when they are ill or teething just need more sleep. So I typically go for earlier naps and earlier bt's. My LO's typically sleep until their 'set time' no matter what time I put them down (if they are needing more sleep).

She's going to be back to her old self in no time.