Bad case of SA I think...Please help!

[Tao]

Hello Ladies,

I really need help. My DD is on nap strike right now and I believe it is because of a bad case of SA. On Friday, I think her A time jumped and I didn't realize it so she was playing around and finally started screaming so after an hour later, we got her up and tried putting her down again and she only had a 30 minute nap. Yesterday...same thing...40 min nap total. So, I know she is OT but I'm also seeing something else that I'm not used to.

A month ago we had to WIWO to teach her go down and it worked like a charm, she would whine for a bit during naps but go down after 10 minutes. For BT, not one peep and she would be down. Since Friday, I have been home to put her down for naps since the school year is over and now when I put her down she immediately stands up and screams at the top of her lungs. I tried going back in there to comfort her but every time I left it made it worse. Finally, this was today's schedule:

Wake 5 a.m.
Nap (tried to put her down at 9:30, finally picked her up at 10:30 to no avail.)
Nap (Tried putting her down again at 11:30, refused going down and finally got he at 1:00)
Nap (tried putting her down again at 2:15, refused going down and now she is screaming again)

This is what seems to happen each time:

Pops up immediately when I leave screaming. So I reenter and comfort for a minute and leave but she stops in between her wailing so it's not a consistent scream. It's more like Scream, Scream, Scream, break. But the problem is she stands at the corner of her crib the ENTIRE time. She never once lays down which makes it hard for her to fall asleep. This morning she stood for an hour and a half wailing and stopping the entire time until I got her. Now, I'm worried that she thinks, hey if I wait long enough mom will come in and eventually get me. The only reason I went to get her is because it was her lunch time and I knew she would be hungry.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. It's almost the end of the day and she hasn't slept for 1 minute. This has never happened before. After the initial WIWO training, I never really had to go back in there. She would usually just whine. I think, however, that now that she's 14 months, she's smarter and I sort of feel like she's playing a game with me like if I wait and stand long enough, mommy will come in to get me.

Help! I'm not sure how to get her caught up from all this OT and how to break the SA cycle?! Do I just do WIWO until she sleeps?

Thanks for your advice!

Christine

[anna*]

With WIWO, I wouldn't spend a minute in there comforting her, otherwise you're right, she has every incentive to just keep shrieking til you come back. When you go in, just lay her down (unless that makes her more angry) and/or say your key sleep phrase, then leave again. No rubbing, cuddling, patting, shushing. Very matter of fact, very QUICK. Remember, if she's just frustrated yelling, or stop-start crying, you don't need to go into her at all, just wait and listen and only go in when she really needs you.

Also I wouldn't go on doing WIWO for hours at a time. Like with PUPD, for naps do it for 45 mins, then abandon the nap, do a reduced A, and start again at the next nap. At bedtime, keep going without a break until she sleeps.

I know this is hard. Is teething an issue too, have you tried giving pain meds 30 mins before nap time?

No nap days are alarming but they will happen once in a while. Super early bedtime, and try to get back on track tomorrow.

[Tao]

Hi Anna,

Thanks so much for the advice. This really helps! Yesterday she finally went down after being absolutely exhausted at 5 p.m. and slept until 5:30 a.m. which was nice. I was expecting NWs.

Today she went down for her nap after 20 minutes. This is because I took your advice and didn't go in there when she was just frustrated crying. I tend to have the poor baby syndrome and want to cuddle her when she's upset. I had a few questions as we approach this better way of WIWO:

1) If she is used to having 4 hours A time and she doesn't take a nap after 45 minutes, how much do you reduce her next A time before trying the nap again? Yesterday, I only waited an hour before attempting again and I think this was too close to the first attempt so she fought it.

2)If she fights a nap and I pick her up after 45 minutes, do you think she will continue to stand and fight her next nap in hopes that I will pick her up again after another 45 minutes; or, will she eventually be tired enough and give in? I know WIWO is harder with naps given the short time we have to do it.

3) I don't think she was teething, but I think she was itchy from eczema so I gave her some benadryl today before her nap and it helped.

Thanks again Anna for your great insight!

[alohahellokitty]

I don't have much advice as I'm battling similar issues. But if she's itchy from the eczema it might be bothering her and she's not able to drift off. LO#1 has eczema and when its flaring up I always put her prescription cream on her spots and also if its bad give benadryl so she's not digging her skin. This helps her sleep b/c she's not so itchy.

I've learned to treat any pain/itchiness and then be firm but gentle with them.(of course treat them before the nap if they need it)  My LO is a bit older probably than y ours. She just turned two a couple days ago. For her nap time I just use wi/wo and tell her to lay down with her bear, its nap time and Mommy will be back when its time to get up.

Good luck!!

[anna*]

My guess is that she was fighting the nap after an hour of A time because she was already overtired. If she doesn't sleep I would get her up after 45 mins then try again in an hour, repeat, after 2-3 attempts then give it up as a bad day and do WIWO again at bedtime.

[katie80]

Christine,

I'm sorry you're having to do WIWO again.  It's tough, isn't it?  I think Anna's right about being very matter of fact and quick about it, which it sounds like you are doing and having some success.  I also get the poor baby syndrome (I would fix her blankie, fetch her dog off the floor, etc), but then I realized it really wasn't helping anything and just making the process longer. 

I ended up changing to just opening the door, saying my phrase, and then closing it again (my LO is about 6 mo older, though, so I knew she didn't need more than that, but you may want to give it a try sometime).  I found this way helped me stay stronger and not want to help her so much.  The closer I got to her, the more I felt I needed to help her. 

Also, my DD always stands in the corner of the crib.  There were days when I thought she would NEVER lie down, and for the first week that I did WIWO, I ended up always helping her in the end.  But this last time I did it, I resolved not to because I know she's fully capable of doing it, and sure enough, she still stands and wants me to stay with her most days, but once I close the door, I can hear her lie down and start to work on falling asleep.

It may just be the change of her being at home with you now; little things can sometimes have a big impact on their lives.  But I bet if you keep with it, she'll get it soon.  Remember the success you've already had.  That always helps to keep me going!

Best wishes!!

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for your advice! Katie I'm so glad your DD is doing better! Last night it took Sophie almost an hour to go down. She did have a great 2 hour nap though and I put her down for what I wanted to be an early BT but she ended up fussing until 6:15 instead.

This morning's nap took 30 minutes and just like before she stood in the corner the entire time and finally went down after being exhausted from standing. I'm hoping she has a decent nap today.

I have one question that I need reassurance about. Last night and this morning I didn't end up going back in at all. The reason is because she will scream loud but it's like a few loud screams and then stop, a few loud screams and then stop and then she resorts to whining, then biting her bear, then walking around, and the screams again. Every time I thought I had to go in there due to the screaming, she would stop.

Is this okay? I feel a bit odd doing WI WO with no walking in. I do know also that I don't go in if it's start stop but the start part sounds so horrible, but then she stops.

* If I never have to go in, will this make SA worse?
* Also, I remember reading from Tracy's Sleep Interview that WIWO may not be recommended for SA. Has anyone else come across this? If so, what IS the recommended sleep training method for SA?

Thanks again. I thought I was home free after the first bought of WIWO success..but here I am again =).

[alohahellokitty]

Well she had a great nap!! That's really good.

Sorry you're having trouble though.

I think if they scream out for a few seconds calm and then fuss or whine they are soothing theirselves and I only go to my lo's if they can't sooth their selves.. That's how I got into this whole mess in the first place with lo #1. I was over babying her... ie poor baby syndrome! I always wanted to calm her and help her. But what I learned was she's got to learn to do that her self. Yes I need to help her if she can't (when she's screaming and can't calm her self). But give her the chance to be able to do it for her self. I have a video monitor and if I sit there all day I can see everything she's doing. I try to turn it around so I only hear the noise and can flip it around if I actually *need* to see what she's doing. My lo tosses her blankets and animals out in anger a lot but I no longer run in there and give them back to her. I've found being firm is the best for her.

Maybe count for 30 seconds and if she keeps the hard screaming up then do go in. But if she stops then restart your count. If she does stop she's calming her self and you want to encourage her to do it herself instead of always relying on you to do it. But always go to her if she can't calm herself. Using wi/wo is terrific!

I think by walking in when she doesn't really *need* you, it teaches her that she can't do it herself and needs you to do it. And she'll really get back in the cycle of demanding you in there all the time.

I've used wi/wo with my lo when she was having SA problems and it was hard but seemed to show her I'm always here if she needs me, but right now its 'nap or night time'. I do walk in (during SA) and tell her 'mommy is here and loves you but its nap time'. I do this from the door and never go in any further as she's plenty old enough to lay herself down and go to sleep. Sometimes I can hear her repeating 'mommy here' to herself. I guess reminding herself that I'm still here.

The good news is that you've already established 'ground rules' when you did wi/wo the first time. Just keeping consistent will get her back to how she was in no time. I would make sure she's comfortable with some anti-itch cream before sleep times, though. I know eczema is quite itchy my dd has it too.

Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[anna*]

Christine, so sorry I haven't been around so much. You are getting great advice here! You may find that 30 seconds is too long, or not long enough - the important part, is the listening[/i] and really making sure you're only going in when she needs you.

I find that WIWO is pretty good for SA - it teaches her that mummy will always come if she needs you! The alternative would be to do some kind of Gradual Withdrawal, but it really sounds like Sophie is well able to settle herself.

[katie80]

I was worried about some of the same things with SA as I had read that too.  But, what both ahk and Anna have said are right, if you go to her when she *needs* you (i.e. by listening to the cry), then it can't make the SA worse.  I thought about trying GW because of my worries about SA, but really since my LO already did know how to settle herself, if I was in the room it just took that much longer and became a game.  So, I stuck to WIWO. 

There were some times when I went in before I counted to 30 and there were some times I felt like you, 'is this really WIWO if I'm just standing here on the other side of the door?'.  I was also given the advice that you can just call or shh from outside the door if you feel she needs assurance that you're still there.  I know those initial screams are really hard to hear, but I do think the stop-start crying means she is trying to settle herself.

   

[alohahellokitty]

Tao,

I wanted to give you some encouragement. My LO is having terrible SA right now due to starting a new nursery, teething, having a new baby brother and my husband being gone for work a lot. She's been a COMPLETE nightmare and still has TERRIBLE tantrums during the day.

BUT I've had HUGE success in the napping and night time department! I've been quite firm with her (after giving her motrin 45 min before sleep times and orajel, I also put cream on her eczema patches) I give her a warning at lunch that after we are done eating we will change her diaper and put her creams on then it will be nap time. I give her several warnings during lunch. I also tell her after nap time we will get a juice pack and a snack. So I'm REALLY preparing her mentally to take a nap. Then I take her upstairs as I'm singing her lullaby, turn her white noise on, give her bear to her and lay her down, blanket goes on. I then tell her I love her so much and I'll see her when her nap time is over. I walk out. Now before she would scream shreak and shrill at the top of her lungs as I was peeling her off me. She wouldn't allow her body to even touch the bed before she was standing and totally flipping out. But with gentle but VERY firm wi/wo she's back to her old self now. We've been battling ear infections and teething lately so its gotten us off track. So to get back on (since she knows how to sleep by herself) track we just do wi/wo. She used to seem frantic and but with being VERY consistent she now knows that mommy WILL ALWAYS be back to get her after her nap and its okay to nap now. The first time I go in with wi/wo I always tell her 'mommy is here and loves you so much, I'll ALWAYS be back to get you, but its nap time, mommy will get you when nap time is over' Then I leave and proceed with wi/wo only if she *needs* me.

I just wanted to give you some encouragement!!!!

Good luck!!

[Tao]

Hi Katie and AHK,

Thank you SO much for sharing your personal stories. It helps to hear how WIWO DOES work. I have seen progress since the first day of my being off work. This morning it took her 50 minutes to go down but I am sure it was due to her itchiness. I gave her the medication too late before it had time to kick in. But for BT last night and tonight it only took 10 minutes! She wailed in the beginning when I first left but then she lay down and realized it was time to sleep.

I was wondering if either of you have tried WIWO for traveling when you are out of town. We have several trips planned for this summer since my sister in law is getting married and in the past we have had horrible experiences to where I gave in and APed her until she finally slept. However, I'm thinking this time of trying WIWO with her but don't know if this is too harsh being that she doesn't know the environment like her own bedroom. Just wondering...

Also, do you notice that your LOs scream at the top of their lungs but then stop for a few seconds and then repeat? I guess sometimes I second guess the "I NEED you cries." I sometimes feel embarrased to even mention that at times I'm not sure what "I need you means". I know every baby is different too...

Thank you for responding to my posts. It makes me feel good that you are willing to help =)

[alohahellokitty]

TBH I'm not sure about wi/wo while on vacay. I'm looking to see what other say as well. I have a VERY touch/sprited LO and also have trouble when we are away. What I usually do is get a dark room (in mother-n-law's house) and turn white noise on. I take her in there after I know she's exhausted. All the lights are off and its pitch dark. I have a sippy of warm milk and lay her down and rock her while she drinks it. I then lay her down with her bear and creep out. She goes down most of the time out of utter exhaustion. I have NO luck putting her down in a different environment (other than her own bed) very awake. She is almost passed out on the sippy when I lay her down. I'm so sorry not to have any good advice! Hopefully someone else can help out. I tried wi/wo for a nap while at mother n law's and she went COMPLETELY nuts!!!! She was terrified! So naps are a no go when we are gone. We usually let her nap in the car when we are out and about. I just hate that but don't know what else to do.

That's great that it was only 10 minuets!! Improvement!! I know my lo if she goes down and is very itchy it could take a while or end badly. I try to give some creams that relieve the itch. Or if she's bad I give benadryl per her dr's instructions.

My LO does the brief screams as well. I've realized its just her way of trying to get me back in there and also expressing her frustration at being put in bed. For my LO 'I NEED you cries' are wailing that doesn't stop after 20-30 seconds. The brief screams and wails are just her expressing her frustration. She has actually stopped these now. Which is nice. I view 'I need you screaming' as when she's getting so upset she is frantic and unable to calm herself. That's when I start wi/wo and let her know I"m here but its nap time and she needs to lay down and go to sleep. I don't know how old your lo is but mine gets infuriated when I try to lay her down. She just turned two and has been like that since she was 16 months. So I just let her lay herself down. I don't go to her any more either. I just open the door and tell her to lay down and go to sleep. I don't retrieve her items she's launched out either. Its taken me a long time to get to this point but I had SUCH a struggle with her. And its great now, she's responded sooooooooooooooooooooo wonderfully! I just lay her down and walk out. It takes 15 seconds from the time I walk up stairs. So nice!

I think just some more gentle firmness is what will help your lo. Let her know you love her very much and will always get her after her nap. But this is not cuddle time its NAP TIME and all the cuddles and time spending together will be AFTER the nap, not now. And you will see her then. PERIOD. I'm not sure about your LO's personality but just holding firm works with my LO. She just had to test me long enough to find that I'm NOT backing down anymore. THe problem is I did for a long time. So she knew she could push me enough for me to get her out of the crib. But those days are over!

[Tao]

Hi ALK,

I know what you mean about sleeping on vacations. My DD is touchy/spirited also and she DOES NOT sleep anywhere else other than her bed. I think we will need to implement the same methods as you. She would scream when she was little very time I put her down for a nap and the only way I got her to go to bed was to nurse her to sleep, which sometimes took an hour to an hour and a half because she was SO OT. I know that it will be hard but I"m hoping that when we get home it doesn't take too much WIWO to get her back on track. It's horrible that I dread leaving the house because it makes me seem like such a party pooper but at the same time it's so hard when you have a child that doesn't transition well and is not very flexible...

Thank you for your description about the cries. I DO agree that her wailing IS trying to get me to go back in there because sometimes she will even call my name while in the midst of the cries. She hasn't really had screaming cries that last for more than a few seconds. She will always scream, then stop for a second or two, and whine for a few more seconds, then scream again. Then she may lay down then get back up. Every time she gets back up there will be a loud scream that proceeds that to try to get me to go back in. This was helpful. Thank you because I keep thinking that I"m not doing the WI WO correctly since most of it is WO and i haven't really had to walk back in. I felt odd about it, but i guess i'm doing it right thus far...

My DD is 14 months now and like your Anna-Li, she too, does not like it when I try to put her down. She has never liked it and screams bloody murder if I try to lay her into the bed, so I just leave her be and let her lay down when she's fully exhausted.

I can't wait to reach the success that you have and get back to those BT's without a single peep!

Thanks again!
Christine

[alohahellokitty]

Oh you will get there!! If you stay consistent with her, I promise you will get there. She will know your not backing down and you mean what you say. One thing that's helped me is to put her down and walk all the way down stairs (while she's shrieking at the top of her lungs) to turn the monitor on. If she's still going bananas after I'm down stairs and turning on the monitor, I get a glass of water. Then after 30 seconds if she's still wild I open the door and tell her to lay down. Its nap time and mommy will get her after nap time is over. Then I walk all the way back down stairs and do one more small thing. If another 30 seconds passes and she hasn't stopped and started screaming I walk up and do the same thing. This helps me to not stand by the door where its too easy for me to do wi/wo when its not even needed thus making things WORSE for me. Once I started doing this and giving it a second while walking away to do something brief, it made me realize I had been standing by the door just waiting to interfere and not allow her to settle herself. I'm terrible at that. but now that I 'do' something after I lay her down it gives me the opportunity to give it a second to even see if she needs me or not.

Yes having a touchy/spirited kid is VERY hard when traveling. And we don't go to many out of town functions b/c of this. Most people with easy going lo's don't understand it at all and get their feelings hurt. But we do the best we can and that's all I can say.

WI/WO works wonders after being on vaycay and bending rules. My LO understands now that there are different rules when we are away but the minuet she steps foot back in this house we are right back to the same old rules. Not adjustment phase or bending them at all. I just have to be SO firm with her or she will have me running in loops for weeks after a travel.

When we travel I wait until she's about to drop dead of exhaustion. Then I threaten EVERYONE in the house that if they wake her she gets to keep them up all night. Not me! LOL!! I do any aping I have to get her to be almost passed out then lay her down. It works 99% of the time. Then the day we get back its STRAIGHT back to our old routine of her going to bed VERY awake and zero aping. I just walk up and put her right in bed wide awake with her bear to put herself down. This is the only way I can do it with her. GW NEVER worked with her at all!!

Sometimes on vacay she gets a bit OT from not napping much (only in the cars while we are out and about) and going down exhausted but we make up as soon as we get home. Early bt's and early naps. With a LO that isn't flexible you just do what works.