Bad case of SA I think...Please help!

[katie80]

It's horrible that I dread leaving the house because it makes me seem like such a party pooper but at the same time it's so hard when you have a child that doesn't transition well and is not very flexible...

Oh, if I could count the times I've felt like a party pooper!    Similar stories here.

We haven't really been anywhere since this recent go through of WIWO (except for my parents' house, which went very well), but in the past if my LO isn't OT, she will sleep pretty well in other places.  We have done our share of driving her for naps, but as long as she's not way OT at bedtime she goes down just as well as at home.  It may be the textbook side of her.  I'm sure you both do this as well, but I bring everything she is used to at home . . . blankie, lovey, other crib things, her fan, and a few of her favorite books (it does take a little room when packing, but for us it's worth it).  Sometime before wind-down (usually as I'm getting the room ready for her), I point out the 'bed' she will be sleeping in (be it a crib or pack n' play, whatever).  Then I find something fun about it.  'Oh cute, look at the flowers/polka dots/snowmen on the sheets, isn't that fun? And that's where YOU get to sleep.'  Then we try to keep everything as routine as normal.  We do a bath if possible, go through our whole wind-down, and then lay her in the crib, just like at home. 

This summer as we travel I plan to do the same and I will try WI/WO if needed.  I feel like she knows what to expect with that and should be able to do it.  However, if it doesn't work, I know she will usually fall asleep (if quite tired) while I rub her back, so that is something to fall back on and I'll re-do WI/WO at home if needed.

If I were you, I'd give it a try.  She may surprise you.  My LO definitely did.  I used to nurse her to sleep in other places as well, but once she was weaned and sleeping independently, she's done a pretty good job.

I sometimes feel embarrased to even mention that at times I'm not sure what "I need you means". I know every baby is different too...

And FWIW, I've felt like this a lot too.  I think their cries also change as they get older and that makes a difference too.  When I just did WI/WO, I had a hard time deciphering if it was an 'I need you' cry or 'I'm really mad to be in here' cry.  As with ahk, I find if I hang back a little rather than stand right at the door, it's usually not as bad as I think.  The hardest for me right now is the, 'Mommy, Mommy, Mommy,' which almost is like a mantra, but just tugs at your heart!

[anna*]

The hardest for me right now is the, 'Mommy, Mommy, Mommy,' which almost is like a mantra, but just tugs at your heart!

Totally agree, once they have language the cries are so much harder to decipher! We can't help it, we listen to the words! My LO used to cry 'I need my mummy, I need a cuddle, I need my mummy' over and over - then I realised it was actually his mantra, and after 5 mins he would quiet down and get himself off to sleep.

[Tao]

This is SOOO good to know. It's amazing how much they change! It helps me so much that your LOs are a bit older than mine. I am learning so much for the future. Thanks! BTW, I just wanted to share that our naps have been going much better. This morning she really didn't "cry" at all. She wailed a few times but then just talked to herself quietly the entire time. It did, however, take her 50 mins to go down so I think I may need to do a routine tweak. It's been taking her forever to go down lately and even though WIWO is working, since she's either OT Or UT, after THAT long she is angry at this point so I usually have to get her or she'll have a shorter nap.

I've been doing one nap these past few days since her initial morning nap refusal but now I think OT is creeping up and making it hard for her to go down. When did your LO's switch to 1 nap? Maybe it's still too early?

[Tao]

Tonight, Down in 6 minutes!!! YIPEEE! Just three yelps and then quiet. I walked over to the monitor thinking..."could it be, no noises...it's only been a few minutes" and right there before my eyes, a sleeping baby!

Yeah Mommies!!!

[katie80]

Oh that's great, Christine!  So glad to hear it!!   

I think I read your LO is about 14 months, right?  What is her current routine?  It sounds like you could definitely use a routine tweak if it's taking her so long to go down for a nap, since she seems to be doing well with WIWO.  All that time rolling around and talking happened to my LO a lot during the 2-1 transition when the timing was off.  My DD didn't fully switch over until about 17.5 months and even after that she's had a few 2 nap days when teething and having a long NW or a quite early EW. 

It's hard for me to remember what I did at exact ages, but most people opt for that shorter morning nap, which turns into a CN, and then a long afternoon nap.  They're all different depending on their sleep needs, but if she's handling a few one nap days, then I would think a morning CN would probably be all she needs.

It might go something like this (or this is similar to what we did):

Wake  6:45 am
Nap 1 10:00 am - 10:20/10:30 am
Nap 2  1:15/1:30 pm - 3:00/3:30 pm
Bedtime 7:00 pm

Many people also switch back and forth between one and two nap days for a good while before fully going to one nap.  So, you can do one nap for a day or two or three and then when you notice she's seeming a bit OT, like now, or if she wakes early due to a little OT, do a two nap day.  It takes a little flexibility, but really I think it's the best way, unless you have a child that can forge through OT pretty handily.  Mine doesn't at all, so I need to be pretty careful with it.

HTH!!

[alohahellokitty]

Oh that's AWESOME!!! Congrats!! See it DOES work!!!

Mine lo#1 only just went down to 1 nap at 23 months. But that's VERY VERY VERY VERY late! She's a VERY high sleep needs lo!! VERY high sleep needs! She's had back to back bouts of teething (very late) allergies and some other illnesses and ear infections which have exhausted her. So she's just making it now to one nap right before two  years old.

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for sharing. Before the chaos occurred (well actually before I got off work for the summer) Sophie was on the following schedule:

5:30 wake
9:40-10:10 Nap
2:00-3:15 Nap
7:00 BT

Then last Friday everything went haywire and when my husband put her down for her nap, she play around and never ended up going down. So, the following day we put her down a bit later at 10:00 and it still took her over thirty minutes to go down, but that was also SA involved. So the past several days have looked like this:

5:00 Wake (which is a tad bit earlier than usual I think due to OT)
10:00 (I put her down for a nap but she won't go down until 10:50 or 11:00)
11-1220 (one day she slept for an hour, another day for only 40 minutes and today for 1.20)
5:30 BT (which i know is super early but I had to to prevent crazy OT)

The odd thing is NO NWs which used to occur when she was OT. The only thing is a bit earlier morning wakings. It's so odd how they can still be OT even though she gets so much more night sleep on the one nap. She'll get 12 or even 13 hours but on two nap days because her day is so stretched out sometimes she only gets 10 hours.

* Do you think I should try going back to the old schedule given her WIWO is getting better now?
* Or should I plug along and keep trying the one nap days in hopes that her nap will lengthen?

Thanks Ladies!!!!!!!

[katie80]

Well . . . that's a hard call, since she is sleeping longer nights, but I do think she's OT and if you continue to push she might not keep sleeping through.  Plus, you'll eventually want that one nap to happen later in the day, and it's really hard to get there with a 5:00 am wake.  But, I'm speaking from my experience, so I could be wrong.  Also, as my LO got older, she didn't necessarily wake at night due to OT, she would just wake earlier in the morning.

I think you have a couple options.  You could try going back to your old schedule, but with a little tweak.  Maybe add on 15 min to the morning and see if that helps or cut the morning nap to 20 min instead of 30 (but if it's getting her down that's the problem, then adding on time would be more likely to solve it).  You've gone from a 4 hr 10 min A to trying for a 5 hr A (but getting an almost 6 hr A), which is a huge jump, and her taking a long time to go down seems like OT to me.  Or, you could reverse and keep trying that longer A, but then also try an afternoon CN in hopes of getting a later bedtime and thus a later wake-up.  This seems kind of strange, though, since she was doing a shorter morning nap before.

If you do keep trying one nap days, I'm sure it will eventually lengthen, but she is on the younger side of the 2-1, and a 5:00 am wake-up is a hard place to start trying for one nap.  If it were me, now that she's doing better with WIWO, I'd at least try going back to the old routine and see if it works; then you'll have a little more confidence moving forward.  Does that make sense?

 

[Tao]

Hi Katie,

Great advice. I agree with you. Maybe she doesn't need a schedule tweak and it was just SA and the change in my work schedule that threw her off. I will go back to two naps tomorrow and see how things go. I"m thinking if she's still fighting the nap after 3-4 days then I'll try to increase A time a bit.

Good call! Thanks!!

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

I was just wondering, in your experience, how long did it take before your LO stopped screaming when you first put them down. I am having more luck at BT than for naps. Was that the case for you? This morning I tried to get her back on a 2 nap schedule because it is really obvious that she is super OT from previous 1 nap days. Here was my attempt:

5:00 Woke up for the first time, then I think she went back at some point until 6:15, but not sure for how long as I was sleeping...
1010-1030(I put her down at 930 since she seemed fussy and tired before then. She screamed louder than usual and then fell face forward and hit her face against the railing and her tongue started bleeding so I went in picked her up and cuddled her. I just let her sleep on me for 20 minutes as it was so late already. Maybe I shouldn't have done that but she was hysterical from falling.)
200 (I just put her down for her second nap and she is screaming on and off again).

* Was it harder to get good naps with WIWO, moreso than bedtime?
* How do you get a super OT baby to get back on track?!
* It's hard to time her now because before I would just put her down 10 minutes before I wanted her to go down, now I don't know when to put her down because she'll put up a fight for over 30 minutes and then she's OT...

Not sure how to proceed...
Thanks so much!

[katie80]

Hmmm . . . tough questions, Christine!  Hopefully, you'll get more answers than just me, but I'll definitely try to help!

So, naps have always been harder for my DD than bedtime.  But, I think since Sophie has had success, that means the timing still might be off.  It's hard to know on the morning you gave us, since she was in and out of sleep a bit.  What was the last successful A time you had?  I'd try to stick with that as much as possible.  Or, what I've done in the past is really watch my LO for a few days in a row at the time I think she might be ready and then I can usually get a pretty good feel for it.  But, sometimes their cues can be pretty hard to read at this age.  This doesn't sound like much help at all, sorry!

I do think she's OT though, as she seems to be having a hard time with most A times you try.  What I've done in the past to get out of OT is drive my LO around for naps for a few days.  It means I have to give up some of my plans for the day, but when she's really stuck in it, it's been one of the only things that has helped.  So, I would drive her for an hour in the morning around 9:30 am and then again in the afternoon around 2:00 pm.  Now, my DD has always slept in the car, so it's something that works for me, it may not for you.  And it's something I always hesitate to suggest, because it really seems like you're giving up everything to get a LO to sleep and also kind of a silly thing to do (like frowned on, iykwim).  I guess, what I'm saying is to take this advice with a grain of salt!  But, it has worked for me, and I've found that the car isn't really AP for my LO (meaning she doesn't get stuck on it, so once she's not OT, she goes back to sleeping on her own easily).

Otherwise, I think you just plug along with WIWO and maybe try somewhat set naptimes, so she gets used to it and starts getting the sleep she needs.   

Another thing I wondered is if there are any signs of teeth coming in.  My DD got her molars between 15.5 and 17 mo and she is a bit of a late teether, so it could be that Sophie is starting to work on those.  Does she have any molars yet, or can you see anything back there in her mouth?  It just seems like she's having a hard time, so I'm wondering if something else is bothering her.

Also, wanted to say I would have definitely gone and cuddled my DD if she had hit her face on the railing and her tongue started to bleed.  We still need to comfort them when they need it!  Poor little thing! 

Sorry this got kind of long, I hope something in here helps.  How did the weekend go?

[alohahellokitty]

I agree with Kaite! Comforting is always okay when they need it!! Its crucial that we comfort our lo's when they need us. And busing her face was painful I'm very sure of it!!

Like Katie, when our lo#1 was terrible OT and unable to settle we did some car napping. At Sophie's age I would do the morning nap in the car and then do the afternoon in the crib. This helped us as well. If she was ill sometimes I would do both in the car. That being said............... I would not do it very long as our LO would get used to it and refuse the crib after too many days of it. I guess it really depends on your lo. You know her pretty well. So I would use your best judgement. I also did this on our 2-1 transition. I'd give a small cat nap in the car and then the longer one in the crib.

I'm with Katie wondering about teeth too. I've been told that SA comes along with teeth and I now totally agree!! It seems for us when she's teething we have cycles of OT and a little SA (until now and its pretty major due to all the changes lately).

Yes we are the same here, naps are atrocious and bt is no biggie most of the time. I think with touchy/spirited kids they wear their selves out so much that at the end of the day they are too exhausted to fight it. LOL!!

You know her best but you might try going back to some 2 nap days. Especially on the days she seems exhausted. Also if you do find she's teething she might need a am catnap for a while before she's able to totally drop the 1st nap. My lo's A time decreases greatly when teething.

I would also try some early bt's to catch her up. And if she plays for 20-30 min before going down that's fine. At least its some quite time for her. If she screams I'd do wi/wo.

[katie80]

I'd give a small cat nap in the car and then the longer one in the crib.

Yep, done this too, even up to as recently as a month ago!  That helps my LO during teething if she's had a long NW or quite early EW.  But when she was really OT, I didn't even chance it, just took her in the car.  I know the back roads around my town pretty well.    

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

Awe...what a good idea about the car. Unfortunately, my touchy daughter despises her carseat and often times a 15 minute car ride to the store results in extreme fussiness and tantrums. =(. Hmm...I need to figure something out. I even tried to AP her a bit in my bed today with nursing but she just doesn't sleep well anywhere else other than her bed unfortunately. Today I tried putting her down a little earlier with her a.m. nap because she's obviously OT. It took her 1 hour to go down!!! Although, the screaming is getting much better because when I put her down she went down without one single peep for an entire hour! I was so happy. Our day looked like this:

515 Woke up, went back down until 6ish.
10:15-1:30 (I put her down at 9:15 originally but she played and stood around until an hour later. Weird thing is she was fussy and rubbing her eyes before this which is why I put her down earlier, but once she went into bed it seemed like she wasn't tired at all!)
3:00 Tried putting her down again and she wouldn't have it. She usually doesn't like going down for naps later than 2:30 or so. I think it's in her internal clock so I just picked her up after trying for a while and did an early BT
5:15 BT

The good thing that you helped me with is that she went down without screaming all 3 times! Now, it's just a matter of getting her to go to bed faster. Because it takes SOOO long for her to finally take her morning nap, it throws the whole day off...I just want to get her back on track. Will try again tomorrow...

[alohahellokitty]

Well you have one victory! That's great!!!!

How does she do on one nap days? If you just hold out on the nap a bit then do a early bedtime if she wakes early?