Would like to establish consistent BT but seems impossible...

[sparrow]

Things have been going well here lately, we're usually getting one long nap and then a short one to tide lo over till bed time.  She's 8.5 months old.  Her A time is 3-4 hours. 

I'd really like to establish a consistent BT, or even a consistent window, say 7-7:30.  However her wake up times are so different (from 5:15-7:15), and her nap lengths and A lengths are inconsistent. Bed time ranges from 5:30 to 8:30 (8:30 is never a good thing but once in a while we just can't help it as she's really pushing her A times).  Lately if it looks like her BT will be too late I'll have to cut her 2nd nap length to 15 minutes just so she doesn't have a 14+ hour day.  It seems to me if we could just get BT consistent then she'd have better sleeps and things might get a little more balanced.  She still NW at least twice, lately more, and EW very often.

Has anyone tried set naps or set bed time?  I've tried putting her to bed early but if she hasn't had her A fill then she just refuses.

Maybe this is why people dread the 2-1 transition and I just have to wait it out...

Any thoughts?  Thanks!

[*Ali*]

What times would her 2nd nap be for you to put her to bed at 8:30? Does she still want a 3-4hr A after a 15min sleep? 4 hours seems a long time for an 8.5mo. Is this because you try putting her to sleep earlier but she refuses the nap?
My LO is a lot younger but we do a set bedtime of 8pm most nights. Sometimes it creaps to 8:30. He consistently wakes up typically 12.5hrs after bedtime but it can vary. I still do BT at 8/8:30 and he doesn't seem to mind. This would be whether he gets up at 7:30 or 10am as he has occasionally done lately.
If you get a 5:15 wake up have you tried to put her back to sleep until a more reasonable time of 7am (if your desired BT is 7pm)? Either using pupd or sh/pat or feeding or just leaving in her cot if happy to play?
I think this is the 2:1 rearing it's ugly head as seems similar to lots of stories on here battling with that. But as she may not want 1 nap consistently for some time yet. Could you post he WU, naps and BTs for the last/next few days so we can see if there is a pattern? 

[Yazzie]

Agree with pp and also think that she maybe OT after 15 mins naps, if you're doing long A times following them, so please post your routine, so that we could get a better idea

[sparrow]

What times would her 2nd nap be for you to put her to bed at 8:30?

This would be if I let her take 2 long naps (1.5h), it just pushes the day out too long.

Does she still want a 3-4hr A after a 15min sleep?

After such a short nap her A is usually 2 -2.5 hours.  It's when we've hit 4:30 or 5:00 and I don't want to put her to bed yet, so I just want to tide her over a little longer.

4 hours seems a long time for an 8.5mo. Is this because you try putting her to sleep earlier but she refuses the nap?

Yes, exactly.  And then we get a long nap.  It's strange though, I'm noticing a pattern where she seems to "ask" for these 4 hour A times, and she seems happy with them and rested.  But then after a few days her A times dramatically reduce.  Then they slowly build up again. It's strange.  So perhaps OT build up?  But if I put her down earlier than she wants she refuses to sleep or she short naps.

If you get a 5:15 wake up have you tried to put her back to sleep until a more reasonable time of 7am (if your desired BT is 7pm)? Either using pupd or sh/pat or feeding or just leaving in her cot if happy to play?

Yes, I've tried but it doesn't usually work.  7 a.m. wake up is rare around here.

I'm going to get back to charting our days.  I'd been very diligent about it but stopped in the last week.  Here's one day for now, and I'll post a few more in a couple days. thanks for the help!

Up 5:20
A 3h15
Nap 8:35-10:20 (1h45)
A 4h
Nap 2:20-3:00 (woke her up at 40 m)
A3h50
BT 6:50 (tried for earlier but took 35 mins to settle)

[kingston's mama]

i never know whether to start a new thread or bogue in on someone's elses with the same issues ... so here goes, i'm experiencing erratic BT and WU as well with my 6mth old - we're just into our second week of a 4hr e.a.s.y. -- he goes down pretty well for two long naps (usually 1.5 hrs each) ... can't get him to take the catnap ... he usually won't sleep in past 630am ... he'll WU as early as 530 most mornings -- the shh/pat won't work, when he's up, he's up, and you can forget about getting him to bed at 530pm ... it's typically closer to 730pm w/2 to 3 WUs (nothing a quick shh/pat doesn't fix) until he's finally out for the night bet 9 and 10pm ... i've tried extending his A by 15 min intervals - we're out to 2.5 hrs ... and now his long naps are closer to 2hrs, which is great, and the catnap happened today for the first time, yeh!!! but the 12 hr night does not exist ... help ... i've tracked his daily routine - will someone have a look, please : )

[kingston's mama]

june 7th:wu 6am
E: 630, bottle of bm
A: play, read, solid, bath
S: 815 (1.5 hrs)
E: 1030, bottle of bm
A: play, solid
S: 1145 (1.5 hrs)
E: 230, bf
A: outdoor activity
S: 415 (catnap) - didn't happen
E: 500, bf
A: rooftop, bath
E: 615, bottle of bm
A: read - winding down
S: 715, bedtime - 3 wu's, down for good at 9

june 8th: wu 545am
E: 615, bottle of bm
A: play, read, solid, bath
S: 815 (1.5 hrs)
E: 1015, bottle of bm
A: play, read, solid
S: 1230
E: 215, bf
A: outdoor activity, solid
S: 430 (catnap) - nope
E: 515, bf
A: bath
E: 630, bottle of bm
A: read - wind down
S: 700, bedtime, 3 wu's, down for good at 10

today: wu 615am
E: 630, bottle
A: play, read, solids, bath
S: 815
E: 1030, bottle
A: play, read, solids
S: 1215
E: 215, bf
A: outdoor activity, solids
S: 400 (catnap) - yes, 45min
E: 530, bf
A: bath
E: 630, bottle
A: read - wind down
S: 715, bedtime ... we'll see : )

[empowered mama]

hi there - it's looking like your LO is OT from not getting that catnap.  If she continues to refuse the catnap, I would bring bedtime earlier so that she isn't so OT.  NWs before midnight can often be signs of OT.

Also you could continue to slowly stretch out the first A time (maybe by 5-10 minutes every few days) until you get to 3 hrs A time and then you can drop the catnap so you no longer will have to worry about it

[kingston's mama]

good call ... here's the way yesterday played out

wu 615am
E: 630, bottle
A: play, read, solids, bath
S: 815
E: 1030, bottle
A: play, read, solids
S: 1215
E: 215, bf
A: outdoor activity, solids
S: 400 (catnap) - yes, 45min
E: 515, bf
A: bathtime
E: 700, bottle
A: read - wind down
S: 745, bedtime - wu 10pm, then straight thru the night ...

what age is it appropriate to phase out catnap???

thx a million

[empowered mama]

well it all depends on how much A time your LO can handle, but in general is it around 6-7 months (or whenever they are up to 3 hrs A time). 

So only one NW last night?  Was that the dreamfeed?  If so, it looks like the previous NWs were like due to OT and since your LO is now getting all his naps the issue has been resolved.

Keep up the great work

[*Ali*]

Wow DS better catch up we only do 2:15 mins A and he is 6mo this weekend!

[empowered mama]

That is just an average time frame C.  If you are getting great naps, don't rock that boat!

[kingston's mama]

... yes, we're getting there - no doubt A is a tricky thing - for my LO, the magic number seems to be between 2.25hrs and 2.5hrs and closer to 3hrs before BT -  but, he did have one NW at 10pm ... hey, not bad considering he slept thru to 715am ... then, today he was a train wreck because i totally blew it for his first A time ... gave him only 90 min by accident and the rest of the day snowballed into a complete napping disaster ... here's my adjusted e.a.s.y. for today - is there anything i could have done differently to get back on track?? ugh

Wake: 715
E: 730, bottle
A: play
815, rc w/bm, side fruit
830, bathtime
S: 845 (50 min) - wide awake, took him for long walk
E: 1115, bottle
A: play, read
S: 1200 - wu 1245, 5 min hum/pat, wu 120 ... poopy diaper
A: 145, rc w/bm, side fruit
E: 300, bf
A: read, play
400, rc mixed w/vegie
S: 415 (catnap) - he's going on 45 min ... which brings me to present time
E: 500, bf
A: bathtime
E: 630, bottle
A: read - wind down
S: 715, BT

[kingston's mama]

one more question ... how long do i let the CN go, if he has under-napped for the day ... not including the CN, we're looking at about 2 hrs total ?? thank you so much - this forum rocks 

[*Ali*]

It is difficult to recover once they have a short nap isn't it?
On first glance I see the 3rd A (1:20 to 4:15) was almost 3 hours after a 2part nap of 1hr20mins. This seems longer than your ideal of 2.25 to 2.5hrs A. Perhaps I would have shortened this after the disturned nap.
Doesn't seem too bad a day though.
As you suggest the first nap was probably UT due to the short A you did by mistake. Oh well now you know. Tomorrow is another day.
The CN can be dropped once A time approaches 3hrs and the naps are two good ones of say 1.5hrs each.

[empowered mama]

Agree with PP - if we had a nap under 1 hour I would always shorten the next A time to prevent LO from getting OT.  If it was an OT nap I would shorten the next A time by 30 minutes; if an UT nap, shorten by 15 minutes.  Some like more or less, but you could give it a shot.  Often I would have luck getting a long 2nd nap if I applied this idea.

HTH!