Nights quite good, naps pretty poor

[bumblemum]

Hi all,

I'm new to BW and am not doing it exactly to the book because I feel a bit 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' with some areas. However I think this means the naps are poor and I'd love your thoughts on where/how I could improve things.
(she is 4 months on Thursday, has had slow weight gain so I'm happy with night feeds at the mo. I breast feed with 1 bottle of formula)
In the evening I bath at 6pm, give 6 oz formula, read story and then Sophia falls asleep in my arms after a bit of crying. Last night I did a dream feed at 11pm and she woke for a feed at 02.20am and then was up at 05.45am - ouch! I expect this seems terrible but I'm quite pleased that I get her down at 7pm and have my evenings back. Had been exclusively breastfeeding and the evenings were a nightmare of feeding in front of the telly and sleeping on me.
I'm not putting her in the cot awake because I know she will cry and I know she falls asleep in my arms and seems able to self sooth at night. (that's the if it ain't broke bit)

The naps are another story. After an 1hr and a half awake in the morning she normally yawns so I start nap ritual. She falls asleep in my arms like a dream but only lasts in her cot for 30 mins. She will then kick about awake for another 30 mins and when I go in she is smiling at me. Is this enough sleep in the morning? How can I PU/PD if she isn't crying?

The day gets progressively more difficult though! I end up escorting her around the village in her pram for extended nap. Driving a bit and putting her in the sling etc. I just don't want her to be OT and ruin the night time. I tried putting her into the cot for every nap and she ended up having 3 x 30 min naps and was understandably quite unsettled at night.

The other thing is that she is 4 months old on Thursday and she doesn't really last the 3 hours without getting grumpy. I keep feeding her 20 - 30 mins early and the cycle gets shorter and shorter! This is even if she's napped well in my arms etc.

Am I shooting myself in the foot by putting her in the cot asleep even though it seems to work OK at night? I did try PU/PD and sssshhhing her for a nap once and it seemed to work OK but still only lasted 30 mins so I wasn't sure if it made any difference.

I'm wondering if my milk is enough and whether to give more formula. I've always had doubts about my supply but am sick of expressing every day.

I'm sorry this e-mail is a jumbled mess of info but she's in the cot asleep and I'm not sure how long I'll get - 30 mins is nearly up!!!
Thanks you so much in advance for any thoughts and suggestions.

C

[*Ali*]

Sorry no one replied earlier. I just replied to your other post but see you have more info on this one so have some other ideas.

The other thing is that she is 4 months old on Thursday and she doesn't really last the 3 hours without getting grumpy. I keep feeding her 20 - 30 mins early and the cycle gets shorter and shorter! This is even if she's napped well in my arms etc.

If she were awake for 1.5hrs and then slept for 1.5 or 2hrs she would easily go the 3 hours plus between feeds. I know from experience it is really hard to stretch them if they are sleeping for only short periods and hence awake for a while before they are due a feed. If you can get her naps sorted this will become easier. I am sure your milk is fine but LOs get hungrier when awake than asleep as they are using up more calories.

I'm not putting her in the cot awake because I know she will cry and I know she falls asleep in my arms and seems able to self sooth at night. (that's the if it ain't broke bit)

I think if she is having 3 feeds overnight she is having problems selfsoothing as she seems to need the feed to get back to sleep. It is unlikely she needs 3 night feeds at this age. Although it could also be if she is having lots of smaller feeds during the day she is used to eating little and often. If you sleep train her to go to sleep in the cot then she may know it is ok to go back to sleep without a feed/you when she wakes in the night. then perhaps you could get it down to a DF or 1 NW only and surely that would be better for you..?
Beware if you give formula that your supply will only decrease and aggravate the problem if you do have supply issues.
Maybe she is OT, do you shorten her A time when she only takes a 30 minute nap?  Maybe being up so many times in the night and getting less than 11 hours night sleep she is OT when she starts the day and it goes on from them.
What do you think?

[~Sarah~]

I  do have to agree with PP that things may be a little more broken than you think.  I agree that she may be having a few more NW than may be needed.

Cadie's Mum gave you great advice, supplementing may be shooting you in the foot as well as feeding early. 

Also, you can try to shhh/pat or pu/pd to extend naps.  Sometimes that works for us, sometimes not.  Naps are definitely the key to stretching time to the next feed in my experience.

Also, don't forget Tracy reminds us this does not change overnight.  If shh/pat worked once it will work again and the more you do it the more you LO will learn this is how things are going to go from now on.

Good Luck

[bumblemum]

Thanks for both replying- It's been really helpful and the kick up the bum I was after!
Things are more poo than I thought - last night she woke after 11pm DF at 2.20am, 4.30am, 6.30am. I'm shattered! I fed her to sleep because I always dothis at night. Any thoughts on how I should have handled it?

Cadies mum that is a good point about calories being used up being awake too long. No wonder she gets grumpy before her 3 hrs because she's been awake ages. It's hunger and OT I think.
I suppose I thought the nights were OK because occasionally she would sleep for a 6 hr stretch so I assumed she was self soothing.

Thanks Mommy Mertel I think stretching the naps is crucial and I need to have a go at Shhh pat. Well after reading your messages I tried putting her down awake after settling her a bit first. She screamed then fell asleep while I shhhhh'd like a mad woman!

My question is - how long should I carry on Shhhing. I know Tracy says for 20 mins but she sleeps for 30 mins so how will this make a difference?

I've tried sitting in there  and when I see her stir after 30 mins shhhing her but she still woke. Admittedly I only tried this once!!
If I hear her kicking about what do you suggest. I don't jump on her and I let her carry on but it means she still only has 30 mins sleep.  I suppose what you've said is work on the self soothing and she will stay asleep longer.I started giving her the bottle for two reasons. Her weight gain has limped along. Sometimes only 3 oz a week. She is on the bottom centile. Also completely selfishly I was feeding her in front of the TV for ages every evening and she fell asleep on me I had her there until I went to bed at 11pm. I was getting very tired of this and the formula means I've been able to get a bedtime routine going. I tried putting her down after BFing in the evening but she woke up immediately.

I worry about doing anything but feeding her with the NW because of her weight gain. In the day she does have a 30 min feed every 3 hrs on the whole so I don't think she is snacking.

When we go out for the day and she sleeps in the sling we have to wake her to feed every 3 hrs so I don't think she is hungry if she gets good sleep. She still has NW even when she's had great naps.

She's asleep now- horrah! but I'm expecting it to last 30 mins. Might go up there now and start shhhhing like crazy!

Thanks again you've been so helpful.C

[bumblemum]

Just went into her and shhhh'd for 30 mins!! My mouth is going to drop off.
She was sucking her thumb furiously and drifting in and out of sleep. She kept jolting awake and then drifting back. It was very hopeful for the future. However she still really only got 30 mins sleep again.

This is going to be one seriously OT girlie this afternoon. I'm going to feed her and bung her in the car seat for a drive somewhere. I know you're not supposed to do this but otherwise she is going to be a nightmare.

Any thoughts much appreciated!

C

[~Sarah~]

So just another quick thought while I have a second-
If she is consistent with waking at 30 min have you tried Wake 2 Sleep?
I'm not good at attaching links, but I know somewhere it is described perfectly.

Basically you go in about 10-15 min before you know she is going to wake and put your hand on her, like her chest or cheek just to get her to stir and then she stays asleep.  I know this sounds super scary b/c she already is not sleeping, but it helps her move into the next sleep cycle without waking.

Also, consistently 30 min naps could start as UT (under tired)

Have you taken a day lately and just logged exactly what her day looks like?  If you could do that and post it for us that would help us see some clues that may help you.

Also, I can tell you from experience that this is not a quick easy fix, but it is a worthwhile fix.  I know it is easier to just do what makes it good for the moment, but you will only be extending your problems.  Sometimes we do have to AP to get naps etc... but to truly make it work, we have to stick to the plan as much as we can.

One more thing, she is right now not used to self soothing so you could gently start her.  What I mean is you can't put her WIDE awake directly in her bed after falling asleep in your nice warm arms for the last 4 mo.  So start by cuddling and shh/patting in your arms and as her eyes start to flutter closed or she gets the stare, lay her in the bed while still shhh/patting. 

I'm not sure what problem to tackle first-NW or naps, but you can also use shhh/pat at night when she wakes instead of feeding.  She may not really be hungry if she is taking all of her full feeds.  Do you have a partner who could go to your LO at night and try to resettle her?  If it is you going to her, she will be thinking YUM FOOD!!!  I know with her slow weight gain you may not be game for this, but you are having A Lot of NW at this point and I am not 100% convinced they are necessary

HTH-I think your first plan of action would be to map her day if you have not already done that.  Also, hope I did not sound too strong...just want to help b/c I know it is worth the time and effort

[bumblemum]

Hi Mommy Mertel,

I'm liking the advice very direct so thanks for taking the time. I had pretty much done what you said before I read your post so I'm obviously on the right track. I held her in my arms until she was dopey and then put her in her cot, shhhing like mad. She cried but only half heartedly so I put my arm in the cot but didn't take her out. She started sucking her thumb and drifting in and out of sleep. After ten minutes I left her sucking her thumb with her eyes shut and she is all quiet so I assume she's asleep.
I need to do this every night rather than get lazy because I want my dinner!

AP is soooo much easier isn't it?! But I agree that in the long run I want a baby that can self sooth and isn't dependant on me for sleep. Plus I'd quite like to sleep for more than 4 hours at a time.

I'm going to work on extending naps and putting her down awake at night and then I will address the NW. My hubbie is a complete star and helps all he can but I'm got a bit obsessed with the BW approach and I've been doing it all myself. He wants to learn how to help but as soon as I feel able to pass something on I then decide to up the ante. Maybe in a few weeks when I've got naps and bedtime slick I will get him to take over.

Wake to sleep sounds scary but I will give it a go. I think she is desperate to sleep because she is sucking her thumb and drifting in and out. I think it's only a matter of persistence.

How does UT work? In the morning I look for signs and look at the clock. It's always about 1hr and a half plus she yawns and then grizzles a bit. When I've not managed to get her down quickly enough she starts crying.

Thanks for your help! I feel really confident that if I persist with this then it will start happening. It's not the easy option but then for me what I had resorted to (co-sleeping, sling wearing) made me really stressed which is no good for anyone.

I never realised being a parent was going to be such a daily challenge!

C

[*Ali*]

Sounds like you are making good progress. Well done!
A note on APing being easier - you say that now but it'll be a different story when they are 20lbs and take longer to get to sleep in a few months time.
BTW we did wake to sleep at this age to extend 45min naps. I did it for almost every nap for 2 weeks and it really worked. Once you have stirred her though it is important to stay with her (and shh or hold hand on chest etc. as needed) to ensure she goes back into a deep sleep. Now DS takes naps of at least 1.5hrs and sometimes as long as 2.25hrs on a regular basis.
Regarding the NW maybe you could make a decision that if it has been less than say 3 or 4 hours since the last feed you will not feed and shh/pat or pupd. If she can go 3 hours during the day she can do at least the same at night right? Perhaps try to up her milk intake during the day by having a small break before offering the second breast for e.g.
Personally I did not actively wean night feeds but found they dropped to 1 NW at 4mo when DS was consistently going to sleep for BT and naps independently (in cot awake and usually no shh/pat or crying). That NW (which I always feed at)then got gradually later until it is now generally between 5 and 7am. (we do 8:8 or 8:30 nights with no DF BTW). So you may find the same that her NW decrease when she has the hang of indep sleep. This was also the same time (well 4.5mo) that we moved to 4hrly feeds. DS will still sleep in the buggy and the carseat though if I am out and I need him to.
Let us know how you get on.
 

[bumblemum]

Hi Cadie's mum, that's a very good idea about only feeding if there has been a 3hr or more gap. I must admit this morning at 4.30am I knew she couldn't be hungry but I was so tired I fed her to sleep so that we could get some peace. She woke again at 6.30am so it didn't work anyway!

Do you think a 7pm bedtime is a bit early? I just can't imagine getting her to a later bedtime without an hr of crying. She is so OT by about 5.30pm that it's all I can do to distract her for a 7pm bedtime (it's all taken up with bath (which she loves), bottle, story and then bed). Maybe this will sort itself out by improving naps.

If my husband wasn't next to me I think I'd be more confident to try sssh/pat at night but I hate the thought of constantly waking him. Might have to move into the nursery to get this sorted.

I wish her weight gain was a bit better because I'd be even more confident working on NW. 3.5 oz seems such a piddly amount and everyone keeps asking if she's premature. She's tiny and absolutely adorable!!

Thanks for the support everyone - it's making such a difference to my sanity!

C

[*Ali*]

No I don't think 7pm is too early for BT. I think most LOs probably have that BT. We just do 8pm BT because DH gets home last from work (7 or 7:30) and it's nice for him to see DS for a bit and put him to bed. If DS was tired before this or got up early I would not keep him up this late. Plus with a 7pm BT you get a longer evening.
Maybe you could try sh/pat on a night when DH doesn't have to get up for work the next day. If you do it for 2 nights (maybe Friday and Saturday nights if he has weekends off) you will probably find you need to do it a lot less by the 3rd night when DH needs to get up for work. I am the same not wanting to disturb DH and this is probably one of the reasons why I never actively weaned night feeds. DH helps on the weekends if we get NW or if they are early in the evening before he goes to bed. You could move her into the nursery but would you be moving with her? We did this because it is recommended by the FSID that she sleeps in your room until 6mo to reduce the risk of SIDS. Just a thought it's up to you.
Some babies are just small like some adults are so it is not necessarily a major issue. Especially if your HV/dr is not worried or investigating it. DS is a big boy born 8lb3 but now almost 20lb at 6mo which is 75th percentile. I always get the opposite where people say "ooo isn't he big/fat/chunky etc. He's not BF is he? (yes) Does he eat lots lots of sugarly things? (no he hasn't started solids) etc." People just love to comment on LO's sizes so don't worry about it. Next time you should say "yes she is small. they don't make diamonds rock size you know" LOL.

[~Sarah~]

Do you think a 7pm bedtime is a bit early?

We do BT at 630 (and not bragging) we do not DF and DD does NOT NW, except on days when I know she did not nurse enough then it is usually only once between 2-5am.  She is a little young to do this, and I did nothing special.  I DO cluster feed at 4 and 6 then maybe a little nip after bath before we start wind down for bed.

Don't think things are perfect here though.  I battle naps every day!!!  My only good one is the morning one. 
Another thing to remember is generally speaking 0-3 months they master night sleeping and 3-6 months they master day sleeping...so with that in mind it is just starting as you mean to go and hope for the best.  DS NEVER slept longer than 45 min naps until he was 6 mo no matter what I did.  But he was happy with that.  Then all of a sudden he took 2 1.5 hour naps until 10 mo when they went to 2 2hour naps.  Now we are 2-1 switch and that is a whole nother pain in the rear!!

If my husband wasn't next to me I think I'd be more confident to try sssh/pat at night but I hate the thought of constantly waking him. Might have to move into the nursery to get this sorted.

Ummm...don't mean to be rude but tough for daddy   I am a SAHM with a daddy that works to keep it that way, but he understands that short term pain means long term gains.  It will not be like this forever
Also-good idea to move to nursery.  I find when kids are in the same room, we wake each other.  Every little grunt they make I wake up...they may not be ready to wake up but because I do they do...then it is feed time again.  Sometimes they just need a little peace and quiet time of their own to work on their sleep
All Just My Opinions

[bumblemum]

"they don't make diamonds rock size you know"I love this quote and will be using it from now on! People just like to say something and it's nice that they are interested so I really should get so oversensitive.

I agree that for the future benefit of all of us I will have to start dealing with the NW. Had very ropey night and am wondering if DF disturbs her sleep. I'm not sure what to do tonight because I don't want to keep changing things but am desperate for a decent nights sleep. We're making progress though and for this mornings nap and tonight's bedtime I put her in the cot awake. This evening she was settled and tired but was quite awake so I watched her, shhhed and she found her thumb and eventually fell asleep. I'm so proud of her and me! It was really interesting watching her though and think it will help when dealing with NW. (The other sleeps were in the car or in my arms at my friends house).

I think when she moves to her own room it will be good because I'm wondering if I feed her before she really needs it and if left she would go back to sleep. She only shuffles at night and never cries - I've tried not responding and she starts squawking a bit so I assume this will launch into a cry. Maybe I should experiment with some shhhhing. Normally I just want to feed her and get back to precious sleep - but need to keep future benefits in mind.

To dream feed tonight or not to dream feed - is it disturbing her from midnight onwards? I'm not sure why she decided to wake every two hours after midnight last night. Any thoughts much appreciated. Thank you lovely ladies,

C

[~Sarah~]

What did you decide on DF?  I only did it once and it seemed like DD had a tougher night that night.  I have definately had more luck with the cluster feed. 

Did you try letting her go to her own room?  sorry don't know where you are and I never know what day it is on here

Also, have you mapped out a day yet?

[bumblemum]

Hi again, I decided to just go to bed early and skip the DF. She woke at 11pm anyway so i fed her. She then slept till 3am. I woke with her shuffling about at 5am and decided to wait and see what happened. After a fair bit of shuffling and thumb sucking she went back to sleep till 6.45am! This was great and felt like real progress. It's made me think even more about moving her to her own room. If I only get woken with genuine cries then she may go through the night a lot sooner.

I will record the timings of a day and report back. I'm currently sitting in her room waiting for her 30 min nap to come to an end so I can try to extend it. Haven't quite got the nerve for wake to sleep - but will see how just being there and shushing her helps.

Thanks for your time.
C

[bumblemum]

Just had to post again because I'm in her room and she is sleeping! I had to shush her a few times and take her out of her cot twice to settle down but she went back into cot awake and is sleeping. The last 1hr and a half she has been asleep more than she's been awake. I might even have to wake her for her 10am feed!! So excited and totally grateful for all the suggestions. I think the best advice was to be persistant. I can't believe that I tried something once and then didn't bother again!

We've made so much progress over the last week it's amazing.

Thanks ladies

C