Is this SA?/2-1 confusion

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Not totally sure where this belongs so let me know if I should move it.  

Austin is 11 months old now.    So today was day 3 of childcare in a row, which happens sometimes but not all that often around here.  I'm tweaking naps in the 2-1 and we just went to 30min in the AM, then 3h A time.  For the PM nap he woke a couple of times (which is odd for him) and then went down again.  

This evening we did our bedtime routine just like we always do and then the minute I laid him in the crib he started SCREAMING.  I checked him over, thinking maybe something was up but everything seemed to be fine.  I did give him a little Tylenol just in case it was teeth but he hasn't been acting teethy today.  So he screamed and screamed and I tried shh/patting him to no avail.  Then I tried sitting on the floor with my back to him, saying "Time for sleep, Austin, time for sleep."  He just kept screaming and screaming, standing and banging the crib bars.  I kept up with my floor routine for a while, trying to inch out of the room.  I did go back and try to settle him, I'll admit to rocking him and then he started singing and trying to play.  So I don't think he was in too much pain!  Eventually he calmed down enough that I managed to inch out of the room.  That whole thing took about 20 min or so.

After that he wasn't asleep, just chatting and singing in his crib.  That went on for another 20 min before he started losing it again.  So I went up and about 10 min of shh/pat got him down.  By this time his last A time was 4.5h (usually 3h45m).  

So what gives?  My leading diagnosis is SA but I wanted to see what everyone else thought of that?

[brenda2]

if he can do 3 hours after a 30 min nap then he probably can do longer than 3 hours 45 min after a long nap.  i bet he was just not tired enough.  did he cry when you dropped him off at daycare.

[skatty]

I will move this over to toddler sleep where there will be more eyes 

[*Becky*]

that behaviour you are describing is classic UT for my lo but I guess it could also be nursery.....

[Tweakster]

I think it's a bit of UT and possibly a bit of SA from the childcare.  We are going through this exact thing.  Bedtime has now become drama for us and bedtime was really all we had!! 

Can you post the routine.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hmm.  Ok, UT makes sense, I guess.  Usually when he's UT he just sits up there babbling forever, he doesn't do this screaming the second he hits the crib business, though, that's why I'm confused.  He had been doing great on 3h45 for the last A but maybe now that's not enough.  I figured with just cutting the AM to 30 that it would still be ok, though?

Yesterday's EASY (as reported by my sitter):

6:45: A
9:45: S
10:15: A (woke him)
1:15: she tried to get him down but he was crying a bunch, she sat in there until he calmed down
1:35: S
2 and 2:20: heard him yell out for a couple of minutes but he went back down
3:35: I woke him
7:15: tried for bed, all the shenanigans I posted above
8: S

And we had a good STTN, mostly.  I heard him scream out around 2 but by the time I thought about going in I realized it was morning!  He was up today around 6:40.  I just put him down for his AM nap (9:42 here) and he yelled for a second but is now up there chattering away.  We'll see when he goes down.

We have had a few days recently when I left and the sitter was here that he's cried a lot, although the last couple of days were fine.  I just gave him a kiss and told him I'd be home later and off I went. He kept on stuffing waffle in his face and was just fine! LOL!



Thanks, ladies.

[Tweakster]

When did you cut to 30 mins?  I know we had to start with 2 hr 45 after 30 mins until Finn got used to it.  Any waking at naps now is OT for us...do you think he might be OT at that second nap?

I would be tempted to give him 4 hours after his long nap though.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Just cut to 30 min the other day since he was up to 3h30 for the 2nd A and he was fighting the PM nap big time.

Good point about waking in the PM nap.

Ok, so I'll try 2h45 for this A time and 4h to bedtime. 

Will keep you posted.  Thanks!

[brenda2]

i agree, shorter A after the 30 min nap and longer A after the long nap.  my lo only does really short after a short nap - 2.5 hours max.

we have just gone to daycare too and it took about 1.5 weeks fro the crying etc to calm dow nand now she's fine with it.  there is an adjustment period but for us it was relatively short.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Well today turned out to not be an ideal day at all!  :/  I needed to do something this PM and my friend had to be home for the cable guy but said she would watch him so I took him over in his travel crib.  Tried to get him down after 2h45 but he fought it until I finally got him down with shh/pat at 3h15. 

I went out and my friend said he woke babbling at 1h05.    I would have put him down for an early BT but my boss was taking us all out to dinner so couldn't cancel that!  He's up there now babbling and it's been over 5h A time this afternoon!  Argh.  But whatever.  We'll see how it goes tonight.  What can I do, right?

I'll try to get on track with your suggestions tomorrow.  Oh, well tomorrow is swim class in the morning so maybe Sunday!  At least he's a little less sensitive to OT these days so hopefully we'll just catch up from this adventurous day!

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hi again girls...

So last night he finally went down after 6h of A time.   9.5h night, then he babbled for 45 min and fell asleep again for a half hour.  In the end that was fine since it helped us get on track even though we had swimming this AM.  So I woke him at 30 min and I'll try 2h45 for this A time.

I've been doing some reading and I'm feeling a little confused about 2-1, though. So if we're at a half hour now, then what?  We go to 20 min in the AM?  Do I start trying to push that short nap back later in the morning at some point?  I feel like everything I'm reading in the FAQs talks about pushing the nap back but I'm shortening it so now I'm confused.

[brenda2]

if he's only 11 mo i would stay at the 30 min am nap and longer pm nap for a while until that stops working for you.  try to keep the schedule the same once you figure out what the in between A time is which takes a bit of trial and error to find out what works for him.  then if bedtime gets too late with the 30 min am nap and longer pm nap or if the pm nap gets really late (ie he's doing a really long A time between the 2 naps) you can shorten the am nap even more.

we went to 1 nap at about 12 mo and just kind of forced her into it and it's been fine - she's been on 1 nap for 2 weeks.  no nws though some of the naps have been discontinuous probably from ot we still haven't had nws.  basically she went from long am nap and 30 min pm nap to 1 nap around 12.  some of the naps have been 1.5 hours, most have been 2 hours and 2 times she's done 3 hours.  a couple have been discontinuous where she wakes every 30 min, cries and then goes back to sleep.  but for the most part it's been good and so much better than worrying about A times and staying in all morning for the morning nap.

most los go to 1 nap between 12-18 mo so you may have a few more months of doing 2 naps before he's ready for the 1 nap.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Thanks, Brenda.  I'm fine to stay on 2 naps for as long as he needs them even though 1 a day does sound nice!   DH and I were just talking this morning about the grand nap plan since the cut to 45 min only worked for a couple of weeks.  So I'll watch him on this 30 min AM for a while and once that's not working I'll think about cutting a bit more and then just dropping it.

Today went like this:

6:10: awake, babbling
7: fell asleep again
7:30: got him up
10:40: S
11:10: got him up
1:55: S
3:50: woke on his own

So I'll try for BT at 7:50 and hope he's not too UT.  Hopefully this is the routine that we can stick with for a while!

Thanks again, ladies.

[brenda2]

that routine looks good.  as long as the middle A time gets you at least a 1.5 hour nap then it's all good.  you got a 2 hour nap so great!  at 11 mo my lo could do 4.5 hours A time after a 2 hour nap but they're all so different and continually changing at this age before they're on solidly 1 nap.  after 1 nap it slows down for a while.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Funny you should mention 4.5h after a 2h nap.    So I tried to put him down at 7:45, for a 7:50 bedtime, and I got the same disasters I got the other night. Screaming uncontrollably, banging the crib slats, etc etc etc.  I'm less likely to think it's SA today since I was home all day with him.  (Perhaps my jump to SA the other day was a little bit of guilt coming out? )  Not that it couldn't still be SA even on a day I'm home but you see what I mean. 

Anyhow, so I sat there in the room with my back to him, inched out, etc, again and then he babbled to himself.   Finally fell asleep at 8:20, so after exactly 4.5h of A.

So if we do the same routine tomorrow would you just go for 4.5h if you were me?  I guess I get nervous about post-8pm BT since it means I won't get 11h at night (since I can count the times he's slept past 7 on one hand!) but I guess that's ok with good naps?