HELP! - How do I get my baby onto this routine?

[menchi]

My baby is four months old and has absolutely no schedule or routine. She eats pretty much every two hours. I never know when she's going to sleep and for how long. Sometimes I rock her to sleep, sometimes she falls asleep in her stroller, sometimes I nurse her to sleep (and then she wakes up a half hour later) etc etc. Sometimes she doesn't sleep AT ALL (like today). She wakes up 2-4 times at night and every time I just feed her. She also has no set place for sleeping. Sometimes I use the crib, sometimes the swing, stroller, my bed etc.
Where do I start and what do I do?


Thanks
-an overtired mother

[anna*]

Welcome to the boards!

I would start with trying to get a routine going. Have an idea in your head of what you want your day to look like, and stick to the principles of not feeding to sleep.

So at four months you could aim for something like this
Feeds at 7am, 11am, 3pm, and right before bed at 7pm.
8.45am nap 1 - put down in cot using shush-pat or PUPD. If she wakes in less than an hour, use shush-pat or PUPD to try to extend
Then, if she has had a long nap (1.5hrs or more) you will do 2 hrs awake time. If it was a short nap, do 1.5hrs awake time. Remember to watch for tired cues, like rubbing eyes, yawning, fussing. Get her into her cot earlier if she is tired. Like last nap, put down using shush-pat or PUPD, and try to extend her nap if she wakes early.

Keep going like that. If she takes lots of short naps, you may need to juggle with feed timings.

For now, I would do all naps in the crib. The very last nap of the day you could do in her stroller, especially if she has had bad naps all day. That way you can both get out for some air.

As a guide, an 'ideal' routine at 4 months old might go

7am awake and feed
9am nap
11am awake and feed
1pm nap
3pm awake and feed
5pm catnap
5.30pm awake
6.30pm last feed
7pm asleep for the night
10.30pm dreamfeed.

[menchi]

Thank you so much for such a quick response.

The issue I see with trying to get my baby to follow this schedule is that she eats every two hours. So if I feed her right when she wakes up and then she has 1.5-2 hrs of awake time, shes ready to eat again before she goes to sleep...and if she naps for less than 2 hrs, how am I supposed to feed her right when she wakes up?
It seems like I should basically feed her when she wakes up and before she goes to sleep. Yesterday, she woke up at 9:15 am and only took 2 20-min naps all day (both were in her stroller when we went out). She was fussy and crying all day. We put her to sleep last night at 9 pm. She woke up at 3 am and 6 am to nurse, and then at 6:30 am for the day. We had awake time till 8. I fed her again at 8 am and now I put her down in her crib. She's wide awake, gurgling, and making noises

[anna*]

Is she BF? I'd put a post up on the BF board about snacking - if she takes a good full feed she really shouldn't need to feed again after only two hours. I wonder if things like breast compressions, maybe taking Fenugreek or pumping after feeding so that your supply is really high - these things may help. I also wonder if perhaps her tired cry and her hunger cry are very similar? Maybe if you get her down early enough for a long nap she will sleep through to the next feed time?

It really does sound like she is very badly overtired and perhaps having extra feeds to comfort herself and try to get herself off to sleep.

If you prefer, you could try going to a 3 or 3.5hour routine until she is caught up on a bit on sleep and taking fuller feeds. Try to make sure she is not awake for more than 2hours at a time - or less than that after a short nap. At her age, most babies are having 3 long naps plus a cat nap each day, and we're aiming for 12 hours sleep overnight (with probably 2 night feeds).

[menchi]

She is breast fed. I can't tell the difference between her hungry cry and her tired cry, im just so used to feeding her every two hours that as soon as shes fussy two hours later, i just feed her. she's been up since 6:30 am and now its 9:00 am ...shes awake in her crib and doesn't seem to plan to go to sleep anytime soon. she also keeps rolling onto her stomach and then crying because she doesnt like it, besides the fact that shes never just been put down in her crib to go to sleep. Ive always rocked her to sleep. I could totally see her just crying and fussying until her next feed with no nap

[anna*]

Have you tried shush-pat to help her to sleep? She might have got a 'second wind', happens if you miss the sleep window or if they don't know how to get themselves to sleep. I'd get a wind-down routine in place, and start that when she's been awake for about 1.5hrs. Then go into shush-pat and try to get her to sleep. Keep trying to settle her for 45 mins. (By then it will be 2hrs 15mins since her last feed). If she's still not settled, take a 10 mins break out of the nursery, change nappy if necessary, then try to settle her again right from the start of your wind down routine. Try for another 45 mins. If she's still not settled, then it will have been about 3hrs 15 since her last feed. So at that point, take her out of the nursery and feed and you can be sure she will take a good, long feed. Make sure she doesn't go to sleep on the breast, and make sure she is awake for a good 15 mins or so after feeding. Then go through your wind-down routine and start shush-pat again.

What do you think? We always rocked/jiggled my son to sleep until 12-13 weeks old, then we had to teach him independent sleep. It is totally achievable, but it takes a few days and you have to be consistent about it.

[menchi]

Thank you so much Anna! She just fell asleep at 9:15. I was doing a combination of shush-pat and PU/PD and it finally worked! Let's see how long this nap lasts for though. If she wakes up before an hour and a half, should I try to get her to go back to sleep, feed her, or just let her be awake? And should I feed her as soon as she wakes up?
She has no feeding schedule, sleep schedule, or routine how to do it. Do you think I should start all of those things at once, or just one part at a time? Like, just start first a routine, forget timing and getting her to go to sleep on her own

[menchi]

What's the basic outline of a 3 or 3.5 hour routine? Do you think I should try that first since this is all new for both of us-mom and baby?

[anna*]

That's great that she went to sleep in her cot! She'll probably do a short nap but that's OK. I would sneak back into her room when she has been asleep about 25 mins, and watch her, and when she starts to stir see if you can gently shh-pat her so that she stays asleep. If she wakes up fully you could shush-pat and/or PUPD for 20 mins to see if she will go back down.

She fed at 8? Regardless what time she wakes up, I would try to hold off feeding her until 11, or as close to 11 as you can. Remember, she is not to fall asleep on the breast, so if you think she's going to nod off, take her off the breast and do a quick diaper change or something before putting her down again. She has to go into her crib awake.

If she has a short nap, keep her next awake time (including the time you spend trying to get her back to sleep) to about 1.5hrs max, so that will mean starting to get ready for her next nap after an hour or so. If she has a longer nap, you could start wind down after 1.5-1.75hrs, to have her asleep by 2 hrs after waking.

REgarding changing one thing at a time or all at once - I guess it depends on the temperament of the baby and of the mother! Me personally, I would change everything. I figure, everything is going to be chaos for a few days anyway, might as well get everything right how I want it - short term pain, long term gain.

Other mums who aren't as stubborn as me, or who have babies who REALLY don't cope well with change, might tackle one thing at a time. I never had the patience for that.

Besides, to my mind, it's difficult to change one thing at a time. I mean, eating obviously affects activity and sleep, and sleep affects eating and activity - it's hard to change things in isolation! Like with your little one, it would be hard to get her sleeping well if she's not eating well, but also, if she's overtired she's going to want to feed for comfort, so it goes both ways.

[anna*]

Ha! This goes back to what I was saying above. In a 3 hour feeding routine, I worry that your little one won't be getting enough sleep, because she'll probably need around 2hrs awake time, so she'd only get an hour's sleep before her next feed is due. 3.5hrs might be a better step? You could do something like this

7am awake and milk
9am nap
10.30am awake and feed
12.30pm nap
2pm awake and feed
4pm nap
5.30pm awake and feed
7pm another last milk feed
7.30pm asleep for the night
10.30pm dreamfeed

[menchi]

Thanks again, Anna. I hope its ok if Im constantly asking you questions until I get things down pat (and am back to my sanity. I also thrive on schedule and not knowing what she needs or what to expect next is hard for me as well as for her). She actually did wake up 15 minutes later, and I shush-patted her back to sleep (she also uses a pacifier-is that ok?)
About eating, it's hard to know if she eats well because I don't see how much she is getting

[menchi]

2 points about that schedule:
how is she going to sleep well if she's on an empty stomach? (or is that my imagination because I'm so used to feeding her) That means that she eats and then goes to sleep 2 hours later! exactly when I would've fed her next ,but instead Im expecting her to take an hour and a half nap and THEN eat?

Also, about dream feeding, I haven't found it to work. When she's asleep she's ASLEEP - I could only nurse her when she wakes up on her own

[anna*]

Paci is fine. Questions are fine (although I'm not online all the time )

I think a post on the BF board would be a good idea. I BFed too so I know it can make you anxious not to know how much they are getting. Taking some steps to increase my supply made me feel more confident about it. Does she seem satisfied after a feed? Does she take both sides? You'll get loads of good advice on the breastfeeding board in the 'Eat' section of the forums.

[anna*]

Maybe the schedule is something you have to work towards. What I can tell you is this: if she is taking a full feed, she is NOT going to be starving hungry two hours later. If you start the wind-down in good time (so not STARTING to prepare for nap right at two hours), then she may just go off to sleep!

I say, try it! Try sticking to these times for a few days and see how it goes! She is not going to waste away, right? Worst that can happen, she will be an hour later for her feed - if she feeds at 7am, refuses her nap at 9am, and is frantic with hunger at 10am, then feed her. And at least you'll know that at 10am she has taken a really good feed, not just snacking, and should definitely be able to last a little longer for her next feed!

[menchi]

ok she woke up at 10 15 am, so she had an hr nap with a shush-pat to fall back asleep 15 min into it i tried pushing off her feeding until 11 but she was so fussy so i gave in at 10 45. What should i aim for the rest of the days schedule/routine and tomorrow im going to try and stick to the one you posted