Author Topic: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!  (Read 863 times)

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Offline llr

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Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« on: June 25, 2010, 18:39:54 pm »
My 3 yo has never been a big sleeper.  We're currently having a big bedtime problem.  It takes her hours to get to sleep, with lots of coming out of her room.  She definately needs more.  She's usually very tired in the mornings and frequently has circles under her eyes.  One time she woke up screaming, "I wanna turn the moon on!" 

This is our routine:
walk (she rides in stroller), bath, or both
put baby (8 mos) to bed; She plays in her room or quietly in the baby's room
teeth
potty
5 books
music
prayers
bed

I'm open to changes, as it's not exactly working for us.  I try to wind her down, but I'm not getting anywhere.  We've tried talking about the day and what tomorrow will be like, deep breathing , back rubs, cuddling..   She has lots of dawdling during the whole routine, which is frustrating for me.  She sits still well for books, but when she moves to her bed, she'll be jumping and playing.

We have a reward chart now with 2 tickets to come out of her room.  No sticker the next morning if she came out with no ticket.  It's not working, and not exactly what my goal is anyway.  I want her to get the sleep she needs, not just to not bother me in the evenings.  She goes to sleep independently.  During the night, she changes rooms, to the baby's, to mine, to the hallway, it's always different.  Not a huge problem for me, but I'd prefer she stay in her own room.

Here's what's been happening lately.  Keep in mind I put her to bed earlier than this; this is just the time she actually fell asleep.
Day 1: wake 8:30
          sleep 10:15
Day 2: W 7:30    (9:15 hrs total)
          S 6 (She put herself to bed;  I thought this was for the night, but she was up in an hour)
          W 7 pm
          S 11:45
Day 3: W 7:45    (10 hrs including nap)
          S 8:15
Day 4: W 9         (12:45 total)
          S 9:45
Day 5: W 7:30      (9:45)
          S 4-4:10 in car
          S 10
Day 6: W 8           (10:00)
          S 8:15 (in car)
Day 7 W 2-4 am
        W 8:30       (10:15)
         S 10:15
Day 8: W 7:30            (9:15)
         S 11
Day 9: W 7:30        (8:30)
          S 9:15 (in car)
Day 10 W 7:30          (10:15)
          S 10:45
Day 11: W 8          (9:15)

I'm willing to start waking her in the mornings, but I haven't noticed that it makes a difference.  When she does fall asleep early lately, she's up in an hour or two.  I have no idea how to get her to sleep more.  Please help!! 

Offline brenda2

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Re: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2010, 05:04:10 am »
is she napping? at what times?  i am confused as to the bedtimes sleeps in the car.  do you do this because she's resisting bedtime?  do you then transfer her to her bed?  how often are you taking her for carrides to get her to go to sleep?  what time do you start bedtime routine?  what do you do when she comes out of her room?

sorry for the questions, need more info!
   

   


Offline llr

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Re: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2010, 20:32:13 pm »
She dropped her nap 9 mos ago.

Bedtimes in the car are really rare, although there were a couple in the log.  Those particular times we just happened to be out a lot later than normal.  I don't have much of an incentive to hurry home when she doesn't sleep anyway..... Then I carry her to bed.  We've only done a car ride on purpose once, and that one backfired. 

We usually start the walk right after dinner -- 6-ish.  My goal is to be out of her room by 8:30, but it depends on how long it takes with the baby when we actually finish.

When she comes out of the room (without a ticket), I send her back.  She might get a hug or kiss, but I'm definately not babying her.  I'm tired and frustrated, so it's hard enough for me just to me nice at that point. 

Offline brenda2

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Re: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 01:24:47 am »
what's the ticket thing?  she can come out of her room twice with a ticket each time and if she comes out a third time she doesn't get a sticker in the morning?  is that it?  so the incentive is to keep the coming out of the room to no more than 2 times so she will get a sticker?  what do you do when she comes out WITH a ticket?  this is a very confusing system.  i am confused, can't imagine she understands what's going on....

i would drop the ticket thing.  if she comes out at all no sticker in the morning (unless for potty).  if she comes out of the room just take her back to bed, very boring, very little intervention, very little talking, just take her back and put her in the bed.

the other thing you could try is a gate on her room or a lock on her door so she can't get out at all.  when she comes to the door just talk to her, tell her she has to go back to bed etc.  keep it boring and consistent.

with no nap if she's waking at 8:30 in the morning i think aiming for 8:30 bedtime is about right.
   

   


Offline llr

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Re: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2010, 01:43:53 am »
The ticket system was an attempt to be gentle, I guess, and give her a bit of control.  Instead of going from 10 or so out of the rooms to 0, she was still allowed a couple.  I don't want her to be banished, just sleeping!  When she comes out with a ticket, we're nice, but not exciting.  We can talk for a little bit, hugs and kisses.  She definately understands that with a ticket she's allowed out and will still get a sticker, and without one no sticker.  But I was also concerned it was a bit complicated.

I used a gate on the door when she first moved to the big girl bed a year ago and did that exact thing.  We still struggled frequently with lots of trips up there.  She had a nightmare about a scary guy in her room last winter that took a long time to get over; and after the nightmare, the gate was NOT an option -- I think because the scary dream guy was IN the room.   I don't see any way that would work at this point.

I will remember to be boring though. 

I think the problem is calming down enough to let the sleep come, but I don't know how to fix that either.  I've tried talking about the day and what tomorrow will be like, deep breathing, back rubs, cuddling...    I can't even get her to lay still enough to rub her back properly.  We say prayers and she wants to jump on the bed.  I try to cuddle and rock and she squirms away. 


Offline deb

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Re: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2010, 02:06:05 am »
In our house we had to basically STOP all activity (except for special occasions) after 6PM. If it were my house, I'd move the walk to before suppertime and have after-supper be nothing but quiet and slow. No TV or videos after supper either in our house at that age; only recently been letting the girls have one pre-bedtime show. (Mine are now 5 and 8.) Maybe some soft music in the background if it helps keep the mood calm, or some music at bedtime. Both my girls have bedtime CD's they've helped DH select music for from iTunes and burn onto a disc, but the first few discs DH and I did for them since they were so young yet.

Oh, and my children have taught me that reward charts aren't all they're cracked up to be. Life got so much simpler when we ditched rewards and punishments altogether and went to us just telling them what we needed and why, giving them input - but that's another thread on the Companion Books and Methods forum (the Unconditional Parenting thread), and I'm not trying to make this go that direction. It's just that at 3YO, I have to agree with PP that she isn't really "getting" the system.

Have you talked with her in an age-appropriate way about why sleep is so important for her body to be healthy? Maybe find some books at the library that talk about sleep and bedtime to reinforce the point. Both my girls also get massages at bedtime, with joint compressions when they're really wound up; squeezing the joints seems to help them get more "grounded." Not big long elaborate ones, maybe 5 minutes total, but it makes a big difference. Combine that with soothing music and they're usually out, or at least settling down, in 5-10 minutes.

Is she perhaps staying up in an effort to get more Mommy time? How much exclusive Mommy time does she get during the day, especially after supper? Don't know if that's the issue, just kind of shots in the dark. :)

When Josie and Nat had issues staying in their rooms, we went thru a period of time where we kept a sleeping bag on the floor at the foot of our bed; the deal was that they could come sleep there if they woke during the night as long as DH and I could keep sleeping, with exceptions being something hurting or bad dreams. Plain old "I want to sleep with Mom and Dad" wakings went straight to the sleeping bag. Ah, bliss - SLEEP for us! :)

I'd also shoot for an earlier bedtime, like more in the 7:30 neighborhood if possible. How bright is it outside where you are at that time? (I'm northern hemisphere so full-on long-day summer now, but southern not so much. :)) Can you keep her room fairly dark?

Can your DH put her to bed, or at least get her bedtime started, so she and the baby can go to bed at the same time? DH and I have tried to alternate putting our kids to bed, taking turns with them and switching off every night or two, so if one of us needs to be out, the girls are comfortable with either of us.

As a last resort, if you're able to get melatonin where you are (we're in the States and can get it at Whole Foods in a nice peppermint-flavored sublingual), a small dose of that might help you break the cycle. The ones we have, the adult dose is no more than two tablets, and when they're keyed up (or if we know they need to go to bed earlier for an earlier morning wakeup, for example), 1/4 of one tablet is more than enough to help them settle. We don't use it long-term, but it did get us out of the wild-bedtime routine last summer; this summer is so much more pleasant. :)

Offline Katet

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Re: Please help my 3 YO get more sleep!
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 02:32:28 am »
I agree with the PP, keep it simple, it has been rare for us to not have our boys to bed at the same time most nights (5 & almost 7) until recently & even with the 5yo if we have more than 1 night in a week that he isn't in bed with in the 7.30/8pm slot (& asleep) we start getting into a messed up routine.

I'd really look at a set wake up, & set bedtime, so looking at average sleep needs for a 3yo  being 12 hours I'd say 7.30 to 7.30. So you wake at 7.30 & you have her ready for bed at 7.30.

Now with my DS2 no way that would work ( he was a 5/6am wake up) & only ever did 10.5/11hours at night, so the 12hour bit didnt' work, but the set bedtime was vital & taking from my own experience, I have issues with sleep & need to make sure I go to sleep within the same hour (9.30-10.30) any earlier or later & I get into a cycle were I either need to go to bed earlier to not be tired or I get on a late cycle & then end up being so overtired that I get insomnia & I'm wondering if that isn't where she is at, in an overtired insomnia cycle. What I can suggest is that rather than the set bedtime routine it be a routine working on relaxing & that may mean she needs to jump on the bed for a while "jump out the energy" although my thought is that is her overtired hyper side (like my DS2 who becomes more hyper when he is OT)
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05