14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak

[Tao]

Hello There,

My DD is 14.5 months old and I need help getting her back on track and off that OT loop that I believe she is in. A few weeks back she became very clingy and would refuse her two naps by standing in the corner of her crib for an hour crying while I did WI/WO. With the help of some wonderful mommies, I soon realized that she was ill and because she needed it, so started sleeping nicely on two naps. However, the minute she got well again the 3.5 hour A time before both naps didn't work anymore and p.m. nap refusal began again. She's been waking earlier and earlier in the a.m. now which is very typical when she has OT and I would greatly appreciate any insight on how to get her back on track. Here are some past routines:

Before Illness:

5:30 Wake
9:40-10:10 Nap
1:50-3:00 Nap
6:30 BT

During Illness:
6:00 Wake
9:30-10:00 Nap
1:30-300 Nap
6:30 BT

For the past 4 days:
5:30 Wake
9:45-10:15 Nap
1:45 Will put her down for Nap #2 but starts standing, screaming and waiting for me. DH goes into to WIWO and still fights nap after 50 minutes until I go in and get her to resort to an early BT.
5:30 BT

Yesterday I tried increasing A time before p.m. nap to 3:40 mins, rather than 3:30 min A. It seemed like she went down for 2 minutes but then suddenly popped back up and fought her nap again. I don't know if she actually went down but she fought it for an hour again until we got her and did the same thing. Tuesday was the last day that she had 2 good naps and I know she is getting OT.

Today she woke at 4:45 a.m. and I just put her down at 8:45 and she went down right away. Should I let her sleep 30 minutes again and try 3:40 A time again and see what happens? I'm not sure what A to try anymore.

Sorry for the very long background, just wanted to make sure that I shared as much info as possible.

Thank you so much in advance!

Christine

[katie80]

Christine,
Here's what I notice in the routines you posted, which I'm not sure I noticed before.  When Sophie was sick, her morning A was about 3.5 hr, but since she's been well, it's jumped to 4 hr 15 min.  That's quite the jump!  So, that either means the A time in between wouldn't have to change, because of the extra in the morning or it might have gone up too.  Since you've already tried the 3.5 hr, I'd try 3 hr 45 min today, and if it still doesn't work, then maybe it's time to go down to 20 min in the morning.  But of course, now she's getting a little OT, so it might be hard to tell.  She was at 30 min am nap before getting sick; had she been doing that for awhile?

Of course, I'm hoping others come along with more insight than I have for you!  How did today go?

[alohahellokitty]

Sorry no insight from me. Terrible about A times, but that's what I have you guys for. LOL!!

4:45am. I'm so sorry. It is getting earlier and earlier. Sounds def OT.

I think Katie might be onto something with possibly needing to extend the 2nd A time as well. Maybe now that she's better she needs more time to burn off her energy. If you can extend that 2nd A time and get a good nap you can push your day out a bit and start getting later wakeups hopefully. That's if the 2nd nap refusal isn't about OT and is about being UT. Does she give any sleepy cues to you if you keep her up long enough?

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for jumping over to this thread. I am home this weekend alone with Sophie and I'm almost positive that she has just developed this pattern that she will sleep for the first nap and bedtime for mommy but will not sleep for the second nap. Today:

445 Wake
850-920 Nap (I woke her)
105 (tried putting her down a bit later today after 3:45 A time to see if extending would make a difference. She didn't show any sleepy cues and only did when she was ill. The MINUTE I put her down she stood up and started screaming. I probably shouldn't have done this but I picked her back up and held her for 2 more minutes and, of course, when I set her back down she started screaming again.)

* I have this feeling like she's developed this pattern now and she remembers that "okay, for my second nap, if I scream, and daddy will come in a few times, I will lay down, but then i'll get back up and after about 50 minutes to an hour, mommy will come in to get me and I won't have to go to bed." It sounds weird in that I don't even know if she is capable of this but it just seems like she knows what she's doing. She KNOWS how to sleep. She went down for bedtime last night, COMPLETELY awake and played around for 10-15 minutes before going to bed. She just chose to fight the second nap despite what time I put her down! Right now she's screeching at the top of her lungs, and stopping and then screeching again so I refuse to go in unless it's continuous. She's obviously calling for me or for dad right now.

I've always read that after 45-50 minutes of the nap not working, you are to go in there and just raise the white flag for that nap; but is it a possibility that they get used to being picked up after 50 minutes. I feel like she understands that and will go on strike for 50 minutes until I get her eventually. She's frantic right now, but she was absolutely fine playing up until now. No fussiness, very playful. She just doesn't seem to want to go down for Nap 2.

Not quite sure what to do here. I'm so frustrated and she NEEDS to nap in order to stop waking so early the next morning. What if I just kept walking in and walking out until she slept no matter how long it took? Has anyone every tried this becuase it's still quite early in the day, only 1:30 right now...

Thanks!!!

[Tao]

DH said this morning, just let her sleep in the a.m. for however long and then just put her down early for BT. But she went down at 8:45 so no matter how long her a.m. nap would've been, there would've been no way she would have made it to BT. But, with all this screaming, I think I should have just listened to him, just to get through the day alone!

[Tao]

I just walked in there and told her the sleepy phrase that my husband says. She did not lie down for me as she does for him to say the least, she is even more frantic now than before, but I don't think I should give in. Yesterday after I went in to get her after 50 minutes of WIWO with DH, she came out and started smiling and waving at both of us, instantly. I thought that was odd like she knew that she got what she wanted...I'm all so new to this!

[alohahellokitty]

Oh Christine I'm so sorry. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I TOTALLY know how you feel right now!! Anna-Li as you know is very touchy/spirited and has done this the whole time during 2-1transition (which lasted MONTHS) and anytime she's sick. So I know about this.

I think she IS OT for sure. But I think she's just not going to take that second nap easily. Do you think she's ready to do the 2-1 transition? (like if she weren't getting up so early? If her wake up was 7am do you think she would be ready?)

As I've said before you can take my advice with a grain of salt and listen to anyone else who can advise especially Katie. All I can tell you is this happened to me for so many months that she wore me down and we just did the 2-1 transition. She wasn't 'really' ready for it but was going to do it whether I wanted her to or not. So I just decided that she HAD to do one nap and bedtime. So I decided I would stand firm on those two things and throw the 2nd nap out the window. Her behavior was horrendous during the transition. It was bad. But we are on the other side now and she's fine unless sick or teething.

Here's what I do. When she wakes I try to wait until she's 100% ready to get out of bed. I let her have as much down time as possible (alone in her crib) when she wakes from naps and bedtime. (when she's ot or sick she screams upon waking and I just go for her, but other than that I just let her have some quite time) So this way she's not getting OS by running around or just playing.... its kinda counted as extra rest time. Then I put her down for her nap not according to the clock but only by her showing signs she needs to go down. At her first sign I start giving constant reminders over and over and over again what we are about to do.. She must be mentally prepared to nap, I guess b/c she's touchy. Then I let her nap as long as she wants and let her remain in bed until she's calling for me or fussy. Then I do the same thing at bedtime, and we've done some VERY early bedtimes! But this is the ONLY thing that's worked for me. I've tried tweaking her routine as much as possible but nothing works. Now she goes down around 6-7pm (unless sick or teething then its earlier, like 5-5:30) and wakes 6-7am. Her naps range from 30min's to 2 hours (rare). So her body started making up the sleep at night. It didn't happen over night but after a few days her nights started stretching out to later wakes ups. And the nap started stretching out a bit further in the day so it did eventually start creeping out where it was later and later. (unless sick or teething OF COURSE)

I may be wrong but I'm just wondering if her 2nd nap is ut? Katie can answer that better. I'm guessing she still probably needs two but is ut for the 2nd one? What about trying to push it back quite a bit further and then push bedtime back as well?

It seems to me you don't have much of a struggle with the am nap but the pm is a disaster. Is that right?

I've decided to pick my battles with Anna-Li (b/c it was MONTHS and I have a new lo to care for as well) and I will do wi/wo for as LONG as it takes on that 1 nap and bedtime. We've done it for 1 1/2 hours before! LONG TIME! She now knows NOT to test me for those two things b/c I will NOT give in PERIOD! WILL NOT!!!!!!

[alohahellokitty]

How old is Sophie again?

[Tao]

Uh Liana,

The whole time I was reading your post I was thinking that I may just need to go this route to one nap. This back and forth thing, like you said, is driving me nuts. I'm so tired today! I finally did WIWO for 1 hr 15 minutes today. She screamed like it was no tomorrow but I could tell that she was fine mainly due to her pre bed time...all her A times today were playful and happy EXCEPT nap time. She finally fell into bed out of pure exhaustion. I stuck to my guns this time instead of getting her after 45-50 minutes I had decided that she would stay in there until she fell asleep since our day started so early, we had "time" to do that.

So,
445 Wake
850-920 Nap Woke her up from it
230-335 (I put her down at 105 but she didn't go down until 2:30 after a long fight but I'm glad she went down because she really really needed it)
7:00 BT

*So, all the other BT's previous to this were perfect. Like I had said she only fights nap #2, but I don't know if this was a result of her experience today from nap #2 but when I put her down for bed, she started screaming again. I just kept thinking, please don't do this baby, mommy is going to cry! Luckily she only screamed for five minutes and now she's been rolling around for the past 10 minutes.

* I'm thinking, if she gets OT anyway from refusing nap 2 which leaves her with a 30 minute nap all day, I mind as well just give her one nap as she will be a bit less OT overall. I think I just have to choose my battles at this point. Right now she is 14.5 months old. I know this is a bit on the early side but we've been having to do 5:30 p.m. bedtimes anyways because she only has one short a.m. nap and refuses the second one.

* What is fascinating to me is that she seems to need so much A time before 2nd nap, if she really is UT but then only needs 3.5 hours before BT. That's so odd.

* Does having LO #2 make things any easier? I seem to stress out so much when she screams and puts up a fight so much so that sometimes I wonder if I will ever be ready for LO #2! =)

Thanks for always listening. I feel bad for complaining so much...maybe I'm making it harder than it needs to be.

[Tao]

Oh, Liana,

I've been meaning to ask you, when your DD refuses her one nap and you hold your fort, how long do you do WIWO before surrendering? I really think if I stick to my guns and if I have enough time in the day, stick to WIWO until she actually falls asleep that maybe in a few days, she'll get the idea and things may be better?! Not sure.

I also think I may try 20 minute a.m. nap for a few days too and if that still doesn't work then I may just jump to one nap.

[katie80]

Ok, Christine, I guess I shouldn't have been the first to reply as now this just seems a continuation of your old thread, sorry!     Just wanted you to know I'm still supporting you!

Anyway, if you think the pm nap is just a game, you can continue with the WIWO since you have enough time in the day to do it.  It seems strange, though, that she'll fall asleep well other times, just not that pm nap.  To me, that's a routine issue.

But, before making the jump straight to one nap, let's try the 20 min am nap first.  It's just going to be so hard to get to one nap with that early wakeup.  I found it quite hard to read my DD's cues after the short morning nap, so I'd just start somewhere between 2 hr 30 min to 2 hr 45 min A after; those seem to be the most common when starting, I think.

Let us know how it goes, and hopefully someone else will still post! 

[Tao]

Hi Katie,

That's okay. I appreciate your trying to help me. I'm wondering if SA is becoming worse. This morning I went to put her down at the same time as yesterday, after 4 hours of A and she anticipated my putting her down and started freaking out early. When I put her down she stood up instantly and started panting. I stood with her with my arm wrapped around her for a few more seconds and then walked out. She's shrieking on and off right now. I'm watching her on the video monitor right now and it seems like she's anxious to get to me. She's hopping up and down and panting....

If she ever goes down, I will try 20 minutes today.  Thank you!

[alohahellokitty]

Yes Katie, I think you are right. You need some fresh eyes for this problem.`I think you might need to make another post and then we will not respond. So sorry about that!! `

I'm so happy to hear you got nap #2 in today!! That's great!!!!

What I've learned from having two so little is to pick my battles. LOL!! DS is a textbook/angel so tbh he's a breeze!!! My problem with his is figuring out when he's tired as he's just so happy and wants to laugh and play all the time. It is NOT easy. THey are 19 months apart and if I had it to do over again I would have waited until Anna-Li was more like 18 months (not 9 months) to get pregnant. As you know she is still teething and it makes it quite difficult. DS is starting baby SA and Anna has had it off and on lately. So its GRAND! LOL!! I will say you become a lot more relaxed with the 2nd one. I was so obsessed with Anna's A times and naps exc.......... But now if they nap and don't get OT too bad I'm just happy with that. We do early bt's to fix any napping problems they had during the day and that helps. I've got two in cribs and two in diaper and also two teething. So its everything one baby is plus another. But I of course wouldn't have it any other way. I don't know what I will do with myself when everyone goes down to one nap (at the same time!), gets all their teeth in their heads, is over SA exc......... It will be like a vacation I guess.

Don't be hard on yourself, your not complaining. That's what these forums are about! For us to vent and get help with our problems. I have to say I made it WAY harder than it should have been with Anna-Li. But she's such a touchy thing its VERY difficult. Had I had DS first I probably wouldn't even know about bw. I found the book b/c Anna was driving me bonkers with her naps/bt's. Just wait your #2 will probably be angel or textbook and you'll wonder why you were so crazy with Sophie... but then you'll remember she was a totally different baby with a very different personality and you just have to treat them differently.

I think Katie is right. Try the 20 min nap (am) first then give her plenty of A time to burn that energy off and be tired then go for nap #2.

When I got VERY firm about wi/wo we were down to 1 nap. She was all over the place with 2 naps and I could never tell if she was sick/teething/ or just plain not tired. So I KNOW with 1 nap she's tired and I have no problem doing it until she goes down. That's our new 'rule' in the house is EVERYONE (she thinks we nap too, we tell her we are going to) naps at least once in their bed. I start by telling her tired I can see she's getting and that its okay b/c nap time is coming up. Then I give her multiple warnings of it, then tell her a few more times how tired she's getting then take her upstairs and she naps with bearbear. I just tell her its nap time and everyone's gotta nap. Jace's napping, and Mommy/Daddy have got to nap to. She konks right out now b/c she's tired and not fighting me any longer. Today she went down for her nap at 10:45 (woke at 6:30am) I getting her lunch ready and she was going crazy on me. So I just told her how tired she was and we were going to take a nap right after lunch. I gave her food and she ate two bites and asked to take a nap. She said 'nappy time'. So I said are you ready to nap or do you want to eat first? She said 'nappy time'. so I took her up and put her down. She immediately fell asleep and has been down for near a hour and a half now. She will NOT take two hours but if I stretch her one nap too late she's OT and wakes screaming after 30 min's and WILL NOT go back down. So we just do this one earlyish nap and then a early bt. Its working and she's beginning to take a decent nap and wake up is getting later (still early bt) but I'm very happy to be at peace. And its really not that bad at all now. wake 6:30-7:30, nap usually around 11am or a little earlier (starting to last a hour or two) then bedtime of 6-7 (5-5:30 if teething, sick or bad nap)

Katie really helped me when we were going through this napping 2-1 transition so I think she's right by advising the 20 min am nap first. I would do that for sure first. Just give her plenty of A time to burn that energy off before 2nd nap. That might help you stretch your day out further and start getting later wake ups! That would be a much better place to start when you do transition to one nap. Then you have later wake up's and she'll last a bit later. If she won't then you'll have early bt's and early naps until it gets sorted out.

Is this the 1st nap she's fighting you on?? Are you sure she's tired? (maybe A jump)

[alohahellokitty]

so sorry I just realized I put she will not take two hours, but what I meant to say is she will not take 2 NAPS.

[Tao]

Thanks for sharing Liana. It helps to read what works for you. I'm hoping to get to the point of one nap. Another hard day today.

Just like yesterday:

4:45 Wake (I tried to keep her in bed as long as possible but she wouldn't have it and wanted me to get her.)

945-1005 (Tried putting her down just like yesterday when she went straight down. I tried at 8:45 but today, she started panicking the minute I put her down and fought me for an hour before finally going down. I woke her after 20 minutes)

1:20 (Tried putting her down at 1:20 because she's always tended to be more on the needing more A side before her second nap. She laid on me quietly as if almost asleep during wind down, then when I put her down she was frantic again. She's been whining/screaming stop start for an hour now. It's now 2:20. She's got to be tired because on 20 minutes, it's been over 4 hours now but she's still fighting it. I haven't had to go in yet because it's all start stop whining and screaming.)

I have this feeling that it doesn't matter what time I put her down or keep her up, she's just putting up a fight and not wanting to sleep. She wants me and is stubborn about it =).

If I could get her to sleep in until even 6 a.m., I could pull one nap and just put her to bed at 5 or something. I don't know if WIWO is just making it worse or not. She WAS taking a.m. and BT fine and now she's fighting all three.It's not like I leave her to CIO. I just only go in there if she's terribly upset and there are no breaks in between but she's so persistent.