2:1 routine has a few kinks - 10 months...

[Tweakster]

Two random thoughts...well not so random but not answering what you are asking above:

1)  The short PM nap is a problem, I think you may need to think about cutting back the AM nap even more - the A time seems a bit elusive for this guy so maybe with the 20 min nap it will become clearer.  Or let him do a longer AM i.e. 45 mins and keep his short middle nap.  He needs more day sleep but served up in the right way for him.

2)  I know what you are saying about EW, believe me I know, but I think you need to have a cut off time where you start the day and don't put him back down.  I would say about 10-10.5 hours night sleep is going to be enough to get you through a day and start to get on track.  The putting him back down is throwing things off, I'm pretty certain of it.  Not 100% certain but it threw things for us when Finn was on 2 naps.  We did the bottle back to sleep trick at the EW and it was nice and all, but then we never got out of the loop and on to a consistent routine.

SA, not sure.  SA is always pronounced for us when he's in discomfort or his routine has been thrown off somehow.  Meltdowns like that at naptime are typically UT for us.  Like 'hey I'm not ready to sleep yet lady!'  If he's getting a longer night by going back to sleep in the morning, then he may not be ready for that first nap.  The NW are anyone's guess...

[empowered mama]

I hear you on this Wendy - I need some sort of plan of action here...we are getting nowhere with the PM nap.  Just put DS down around 3h10 A and he has been playing for 20 minutes already, argh.

So I have no problem shortening that first nap if things clarify a bit.  Should I shoot for a 2nd A time of 3 hrs?  2h45?

Don't know that doing the 45 min AM/short PM would solve anything, as he would refuse the nap unless 2nd A time was around 3h40 (which made our day far too long and EWs persist).

About these EWs....I think I can drag myself out of bed if he hits the 10-10.5 mark.  Is it okay to do this even though he still seems tired and wants to go back to sleep?  I will be honest and say I'm a bit nervous about him getting OT.

But really....I will try anything to get us out of this most frustrating hole - anything!

[empowered mama]

Wow....just got a 55 min nap #2 - definitely OT seeming.  Don't even know what to do with the rest of the day, ugh.

[Tweakster]

It's because he's going down UT and playing himself into OTland.  I don't know what to suggest.  I do know that at 10 mths we had to cut back to 20 min AM and he was on that for about 1.5 mths until I had to move him to 1 nap.  You could do the 20 min AM and long PM and it might stabilize him for the next 6 mths!  Some kids are like that.

I always hesitate to say cut the nap at 10 mths because it's really just the start of this journey, but I really think that because he's getting that extension of his night sleep, he needs a bit less day sleep than the norm.  It's really hard to push the day with an EW but even after your tweaking of late he's not showing signs of waking any later so I think I would start toughen a bit and not put him back down if he woke at 5:30 or beyond. 

Then you might try:
Awake 5:30
Nap 9 - 9:20
Nap 12 - 2 (second A time after a 20 min nap is between 2 hr 30 - max 3 hrs - start at 2 hr 30 at his age)
Bedtime asleep by 6 latest

The other thought I had was to let him have 45 mins AM and then he can handle a longer middle A time, so you could push him out and maybe he would do a 1.5 hr nap if he has a much longer A time??
So:
Awake 5:30
Nap 9 - 9:45
Nap 1:30 - 3 (maybe he can even do 4 hrs A time here???)
Bedtime asleep by 6:30


I agree that OT is nerve-wracking, and there is always a danger of that when making a routine change.  But so is tweaking until your head explodes :-)  So sometimes you have to get a bit radical to really make some progress. 

Sorry about your afternoon and your bad nap day!  These loops are really hard to get out of but it can be done :-)

[Jiinx]

carrie..what wendy suggested was what I did at 6.5 months..hence the wondering about the EW she was really using the morning nap as her extension sleep ..

it's so frustrating isn't it...all these tweaks are enough to drive a mommy insane.

[empowered mama]

I see very much what you both are saying here. 

I will give it a go tomorrow and really hope he can make it to at least 10 hrs night sleep.  The past few days he has been waking at 8-9 hrs (4:30 or so).  I imagine that if this occurs again, that I would treat this as a NW and not feed?  And hope he gets another hour or so before up for the day?

Feeling hopeful about this!

[Jiinx]

Goodness I only attempted this when she did a 10 hour plus night. 8-9 hours is a bit too short..probably a good idea to treat it as a NW. I hope he gives you a long night today.

[empowered mama]

hi ladies,

Well, I chickened out on the 20 minute AM nap  and went for option #2 since we had success with that last week.  Still struggling though - Here is our day so far:

EW @ 4:10 - left him to mantra for 10 min and went back down.

Up @ 5:45, had about 10.5 hrs sleep

1st A = 3h40 - tried to have him down by 3.5, but took 20 min to settle; almost seemed UT (nap 45 min)

2nd A = 3h40 - he was just exhausting me; fussy, crying every time I left the room, seemed tired so went for the nap.  Yielded a 1 hr nap and honestly having a hard time telling if OT or UT.  Woke pretty upset, so maybe OT?

IDK....feeling a little defeated here (and not much Y time these days!)  Do you think I need to bite the bullet and go for the 20 min AM nap?  The only other thing I can think of is that upon waking in the morning, I feed him for about 20-25min in the dark so perhaps he is counting that as sleep time?  Perhaps I need to make sure he is wide awake before feeding?

[Jiinx]

Hi Carrie,
 When he woke at 5:45, did you start your day from here?

 What I think may have happened is if he went down UT for his first nap, then the 3 hour and 40 minute A time following a UT nap was just too much for him. That second nap could've been OT...he's not teething anymore, right? Z wakes up at an hour sometimes during her nap ...it could also be UT ..tired enough to sleep for 1 hour but would up bc he wasn't tired enough to enter a deep phase..


Not sure about feeding in the dark..but I usually let my dd play in her crib for 20 minutes or so and then feed her 20 minutes later after a diaper change etc. I doubt he would confuse it as sleep..?

Just my hunch..as Z did this quite often. I could never figure her out too well...the second nap was just a hit and miss over here.

Not being very helpful...

I hope he yields a good night for you.

[Tweakster]

Hi there Carrie, really not sure.  If you go to 20 min and it stuffs up, it could mean some OT.  I guess you have to be at peace with the OT should that happen :-) 

The morning bit, well I would say that it's more like a NW so he's probably using it as night sleep.

[empowered mama]

hi again Wendy and Sarah,

Thank you for hanging in with us.  I think I've been enlightened - a few light bulbs have clicked and I'm noticing some things:

Today I went for the 20 min AM nap just to see.  Believe it or not, Asher woke at 6 this morning - about 11 hrs sleep w/no NWs.  But I was discouraged from yesterday so I fed and he (we) fell asleep for another half hour.  All in all, 11.5 hrs.  First A of 3.5, 20 min nap.  Second A of 2h40 (once he settled in) got us a 1.5 nap (but still was tired). 

So my theory is that if we would have capped the night sleep at 11 hrs, he may have made that extra 30 min up on nap #2 giving us a 2 hr PM nap (either that, or the 2nd A time needs a tweak).

Tomorrow I'm going to test it out - hopefully we get another 11 hr night tonight.  I'm in super scientist mode!

Will stay posted

[Tweakster]

It sounds really promising!  Hang in there, you will get through this 2-1 :-) 

[empowered mama]

hi again ladies,

Still a bit stuck here   Can I get your take on a few things?

Haven't had much luck yet getting that 11 hr night w/o an EW.  I've been going back and forth with the 20 min and 45 min AM nap - with the 20 min nap I can't get that long PM nap.  But when I do the 45 min nap, I am able to get a 1.5 PM nap.  Yet even with the successful naps, we are still getting EWs.  For example, this was yesterday:

EW @ 4:45, feed and back down

Awake @ 6:15

1st A = 3.5; nap 45 min
2nd A = 3.75; nap 1.5
3rd A = 3h20; BT at 7:00

This morning we had an EW at 4:30, fussed for 5 min and back to sleep.  Then back up at 5:00 when I fed and he went back down for another 1.5 hrs.

I thought for certain that with those decent naps we would escape the EW, but not so.  It all seems to be pointing back to the EW, like you said.  It's as if he is actually starting his day at 4 or 5, getting lots of 'naps', and going to bed at 7 which makes for a really long day.  Does that make sense to you?

If this is the case, I cannot wrap my mind around how to get out of this loop other than start our day at 4 or 5 AM (which is when the EW has been the past 4-5 days).  He certainly is OT when he wakes, so I don't know if he would make it with his usual A times being so tired.  And this would also mean that his BT would be between 4 and 5, no? 

Is there anything I'm missing here?  Another way out?  A magic pill that will make things right?    These darn EWs are wearing DH and I thin...

[Tweakster]

Carrie can't recall if you have tried W2S?  I think we really really need to get rid of that morning feed back down trick.  He may even be waking habitually now?

Where are we on teeth, refresh my memory?

Sorry - it's not a fun period.  I tore my hair out as did Sarah IIRC.  We all make it through, I promise :-)

[empowered mama]

Ah, well it's promising to know that it really won't last forever.  Some days I think it will!

We are good on teeth - nothing new that I can tell.  TBH, I forgot all about that W2S trick.  I tried it once or twice way back when and haven't given it much thought.  Should I try it around 4 or so?  And do I wake him fully?

Would it be worth a shot to do some form of PU/PD at the EW?  I've thought about this too, but think it might take eons for him to get back to sleep.

It really is hard to say if he wakes habitually or not - the EW times are never consistently on the dot and occasionally the feed doesn't always work, by which I then pop in in the swing and he goes off (and he is about to burst out of it).  Perhaps we need to 'teach' him to go back on his own?

I really appreciate the encouragement - yes, it will get better with time! (trying to convince myself  )