2:1 routine has a few kinks - 10 months...

[empowered mama]

hello all,

We recently started transitioning my almost 10 month DS to short AM/long PM nap routine and have a few areas that need tweaking - I'm not sure where to adjust.  He no longer is refusing his 2nd nap, but is having a hard time settling to bed and we are getting EWs.  Our current routine looks something like this:

Awake @ 6:00

E - 7:00
A - 3h35
S - 9:35 (1 hr nap)

E - 11:00
A - 3h40
S - 2:15 (1.5 hr nap - often he wakes halfway through, fusses for 5 min, then finishes the nap)

E - 3:45
A - having a hard time getting this A time - try putting him down at 3 hr, but often doesn't settle for 20-30 min and then we get the EW
S - 6:45-7:15ish

Before we made the shift to the short AM nap, I was able to APOP the EW all the time to get another hour or so out of him.  Now AP doesn't work with this new schedule and not sure why.  Wondering if I should cut the AM nap a bit shorter?  Or adjust somewhere else?

Any thoughts ladies?  TIA

[Tweakster]

Hi there, hmm need to ponder.  I agree, I wonder if he's ready for the 45 min AM?  If he's not tired enough to go back to sleep at the EW and wakes happy and playful, then he's probably getting too much sleep somewhere, likely in the day.  The routine looks good really but I think he needs more last A time - I don't think 3 hrs is enough in light of all his day sleep.

[empowered mama]

hi wendy and thanks for your response

So last night I took your suggestion and stretched the last A to 3.5 - he didn't settle to sleep until 3.75 and we had an EW at 5:10 this morning, just 9.5 hrs after bedtime.  This one definitely seemed OT and I was able to AP him back for another hour or so.

I've been thinking about this, and wonder if the fact that his day is so long is playing a factor?  With the 2.5 hrs of naps and 10.75 hrs A time, his day ends up being nearly 13.5 hrs long.  Do you think this matters?   Maybe by shortening the 1st nap we can then shorten the next A and get an all around decreased day?

What do you think?

[Tweakster]

Hi there, yeah I really do feel like a nap cut is in order here.  It could be that the day is just too long but he needs more A time.  It's such a fine line at this age.  Sorry about the EW - yuk.  I would give a shorter nap a try to see if it helps things. 

[empowered mama]

Thanks Wendy - yes, I do think you're right on that.  The past few days we've done the 1 hr AM nap, and he's been giving me a 1 hr PM nap, regardless of A time.  It's like he's cutting his day sleep on his own or something.

I think maybe a 45 min AM nap maybe?  Also, do you think it's important to put him down for nap #1 UT?  Generally he wakes himself after an hour and is in a good mood.  I know I can stretch the first A, but am curious if this will affect anything.  IDK - just thought I'd pick your brain

[empowered mama]

Hmm....well we're a little stuck on the PM nap right now - can't seem to get it past 1 hour.  Here is what the day looked like:

Awake @ 7:25
E - 8:25
A - 3h50
S - 11:15 (45 min nap - woke him)

E - 12:25
A - 3h45 (took 20 min to settle)
S - 3:45 (1 hr nap)

E - 4:45
A - 3h15
S - 8ish

He woke crying from the 1 hr nap, and still seemed tired.  Have you ever experienced an OT 1 hr nap before?  Can't quite tell if I should push him on the 2nd A or somehow cut back (sleepy cues are absent).  Definitely he is having a hard time settling to bed because of OT and of course the EWs persist. 

Any thoughts on how to adjust Wendy?  TY

[makka]

Im just wondering if i can jump in on this thread, but i experienced what you experienced with your lo i had the EW and some OT.
It looks like the first A time is too long and because he is only having a 45 min nap he is already Ot bfore the nap and upon waking, therefore the next A time is long and his OT is increasing by bedtime. i would try this for eg

7am wake
10.00am sleep (45 min wake him up) 3 hours A
10.45am wake
2.15pm (1 hour 30 min nap) or more (3 hours 15 - 3 hour 30 A) depending on your lo
3.45pm wake
7pmish bedtime (3 hour 15 A)

Total A time roughly of 9hrs 45 and day time sleep of 2 hour 15, total day of about 12 hours. Give or take 5 min here and there

My lo was waking OT from the first nap because i would keep her up for about 3 hour 30 first A time, when she did not need the first A time to be long, as its only a CN, you are best to use up the rest of her A time throughout the day and most importantly the last A time.

Im at 30 mins AM and 2 hour PM, i have noticed that since cutting the AM nap down my lo is making up for the sleep in her PM nap which is great.

I think your lo is OT and i would cut the AM nap first and see how you go for a few days and see if the EW are still there.

hope this helps kirsten

[Tweakster]

Hi there Carrie, pp has some good points, that first A time is pretty high.  You may want to cut back to 3.5 or less and then offer the shorter nap, then another 3-3.5 hrs A for the longer nap.

Also, do you think it's important to put him down for nap #1 UT?  Generally he wakes himself after an hour and is in a good mood.  I know I can stretch the first A, but am curious if this will affect anything.  IDK - just thought I'd pick your brain Wink

This is kind of what we are talking about here.  The first A doesn't need to be too high but enough that they will want to nap and enough so as to not reinforce any EW.  I wouldn't say UT exactly, but just tired enough :-)

[empowered mama]

Wow ladies, this advice has been so helpful to me 

We scaled back on the As today, and would you believe we got a decent 2nd nap?!  Ended up being 1h10min and seemed a little OT, so will scale back a titch more on A time tomorrow.  I am so surprised at this, as I thought I needed to keep bumping this kid when really he was just OT.

He settled in quite well for bed, so we shall see if Mr. EW comes to visit tomorrow.  Really thankful to be making progress - appreciate your help so very much

[empowered mama]

Well hmm....we are back to that 1 hour seemingly OT PM nap again.  Today has gone something like this:

Awake @ 7:40
1st A = 3h20 (put him down at 3h, but just didn't seem quite ready for the nap)
Nap # 1 = 45 min (woke him)

2nd A = 3h10
Nap # 2 = 1 hr

Do you think we would do well to bring back the AM 1 hr nap?  Perhaps the 45 min nap is causing too much OT? 

side note:  This morning we did have an EW, but not nearly as early as usual, so a little improvement 

[Tweakster]

Hmm you could try to scale back the middle A time and see if that creates a longer PM nap.  Maybe stick with 2 hr 45/3 hr to see.

Or you could try a 50 min AM nap...

It's so trial and error and hard to judge on a day to day basis.  Sometimes you need to give it a week before he will adjust and you will see if it's working or not.

How was today?

[empowered mama]

I see what you mean Wendy....I'm sure it will take some time before things click into place.

Oddly enough, today was the first day in 3 or 4 months that we didn't get an EW.  And he only had 1h45min of nap time yesterday - unbelievable. 

Today we had a first A of 3h20 and I decided to wake around 55 min to change things up.  2nd A time was 3h20 also and we got a 1h5min nap that *almost* seemed UT, go figure.  The past 2 nights he has gone to bed like a dream, which also never happens.  Things just seem odd - the minute I think I have a clue, the tables turn 

I'll try again tomorrow and perhaps we'll get a long nap - thanks for your support in this; will stay posted

[Tweakster]

Do you think he would go down if you dropped that morning A back a titch?  Like even 3 hr and do the 1 hr nap and then a longer nap after a longer A time?  It's another way to try it.

[empowered mama]

hi there again ladies - still sorting things out and thought I'd probe you for some more insight

The past few days I've been trying some different A times, and seems we still can't get past that 1 hr PM nap.  Yesterday we had a first A of 3.25 (woke him at 55 min) and second A of 3 hrs, giving us a 1h5min nap.  Today was a bit of a mess - tried a higher A and still the same result.

What I'm struggling to determine is if these naps are OT or UT - often he wakes crying and seeming tired in his eyes, but then perks right up and maintains a good mood.  He really has no sleepy cues at all, other than eye rubbing on and off all day.  Can I ask how your LOs act when waking OT or UT at this age?

I may try for the 3hr first A tomorrow - often I have a hard time getting him to nap earlier than this, but I'll give it a go and see if anything changes.  If this pattern persists, maybe I can get away with a 1 hr first nap and 1 hr second nap?  Though I'm sure EWs will stick around...

[Tweakster]

How did it go?  I found that Finn had a big leap in A time at that age and really he could handle a lot more than I thought.  So a nap of 1 hr or less would have been UT for us.  He typically wakes out of sorts, it takes him time to get acclimated.  He's a bear if woken by us.  We tend to leave him a bit before rushing in as better for everyone.  But that's only 1 kid :-)  What is your gut telling you?  What temperament is he?