2:1 routine has a few kinks - 10 months...

[Jiinx]

still reading along. I'm just wondering if he's EW due to habit or if he's really done sleeping. I wish he was EW closer to 6am so we could get a decent start to do the day and push the As.

Could you try to start the day at 5? And maybe push him until 4?

What was his bedtime after his 1.5 nap the other day?

Have you done a long A before bed time (I'm sure you have...)?

[empowered mama]

Sarah, I'm pretty certain that he needs more sleep beyond those EWs because he wakes crying pretty hard - seeming really tired still.  I am willing to try to start at 5, but how will I get his day pushed back out again?

Yesterday we put him to bed at 7 with a last A of 3h20 and he went out pretty easily (which is a rarity).  I have tried longer As before bed and still the EW. 

How did you ladies manage to get out of the EW loop?  Just an early start to the day?

[Tweakster]

First I would try W2S, do it for like 3 days at around 4/4:30 - yes totally make sure he is roused out of deep sleep.  Just enough to have him turn over or something.

Then if that doesn't work, I think you need to try the tough route of not feeding him and just telling him that the day doesn't start until x time.  For us that was usually around 6 a.m.  Anything before that, we would just leave him in the crib, he was typically content there.  But my son is an enigma.  Your boy is crying when he wakes, and he's waking earlier, so yes either shush/pat or PU/PD to go back to sleep and help to teach him how to do it.  Perhaps some GW to let him know 'hey I'm here but we aren't starting the day yet, might as well go back to sleep'.  This may mean you laying on his floor just repeating the key phrase and/or patting him through the crib.  

In retrospect, I should have sucked it up and did GW or even WI/WO a lot sooner and just told him to go back to sleep.  But I was really greedy with my own sleep, and didn't want to deal with it, even though I never really slept from an EW onwards *rolls eyes*

EDIT:  Carrie, I just realized that may have come out wrong, I just meant that I prolonged our EW longer than possibly needed because I didn't put him back to sleep AND I didn't do any sleep training.  So we sat in limbo a long time just praying that he might start sleeping later one day...he didn't - so we had to work at it one way or another 

[Jiinx]

ack. I meant to say push  him until 9..not 4.

I've never tried W2S but so many moms have had great success with it.

I let my daughter stay in her crib since about 6 and half months and she knows that she can play around in her crib and go to sleep as I won't be getting her right away. And then..I just usually push her to x time.

So sorry Carrie that you're still in this rut...

[empowered mama]

hi ladies,

Just wanted to pop in and say that we are still working some things out.  Had some pretty rough nap days the past few, but are still trying W2S and have had a little success with shh/pat at the EWs. 

Thanks for your fabulous pointers and tips - we'll get there eventually

Will stay posted...

[Tweakster]

Hang in there, glad to hear that you are working things out with Asher.  He'll get there :-) 

[empowered mama]

ok girls, I may need your perspective again - we are still stuck 

Have been trying W2S, but he has been beating me to it the past few days.  Here was our EASY yesterday:

EW @ 4:00

Woke @ 5:15, was up and down until 6 when we got up (had 10.5 hrs sleep)

1st A = 3.5; nap 45 min (woke him)

2nd A = 3h40; nap 1.5

3rd A = 3.75 (tried for 3.5 but he took 15 extra min to settle)

- Our day was just over 13 hrs long

EW @ 4:00, shh/pat him back down in 5 min

EW @ 5:00, did shh/pat for nearly 45 min.  I could tell he was trying to go to sleep - he would be quiet for a few minutes, I would think he was out, and then up and crying again.  I could see this was going nowhere so I fed around 5:45; he was still trying to fall asleep and kept crying so I popped him in the swing where he was asleep for 15 min or so. 

Up at 6:20 (had 10ish hrs sleep)

He is clearly tired - rubbing eyes, yawning, fussy.  What I am unclear about is how long I should do shh/pat or whatever method at the EW.  Do I just do it until say 6 when we start our day?  Even if he never falls asleep?  I have no problem continuing sleep training if I am convicted that this will solve the issue.  Wendy, how again did you fix your EW problem?

Is there anything about our routine that looks off?  I have been sticking to the 45 min AM nap because it's the only one that has guaranteed me a long PM nap so far.  I am still torn as to whether the EW is routine or habit, or perhaps both. 

Sorry for the long post....just a little confused, and a wee bit tired.

[empowered mama]

ugh....a 30 min OT first nap.  I really don't know what my options are anymore. 

Would it be worth it to throw this kid on 1 nap?  Or would that just make things worse....

[empowered mama]

Let me apologize for all the posts I've written!  Seems that typing is keeping my spirits up today.

Been reading away about EWs and am quite convinced that Asher is OT all the way.  His day is too long, and his last A is too long.  What I've been doing for weeks now is trying to push his day out, I think in the wrong way.  I stretch the last A to get us to 7PM because I've feared him waking even earlier if I do an earlier BT.  But I think this is perpetuating these EWs and I'm pretty certain his feeding in the AM is just a means to help him relax enough to doze back off and it's not really a hunger/habit as much.

What I cannot figure out is how to get his day pushed out since we are in 2-1 transition.  So for example, today he woke at 5 which means he should be in bed by 5/5:30.  It seems that others are able to push the day out by increasing that 1st A, but since we are doing a short AM nap, can I even do that?  Will I just need to stick to a super early BT/wake until he is finally on 1 nap?

Does this make any sense?  I hope it's not just rambles here...

Appreciate any thoughts you may have - things are just not getting better yk?

[Jiinx]

Hi Carrie!
 Oh sweetie sorry about the long days and the awful EWs:( It's terrible isn't it..

 Carrie, I know you say he's OT...but how is that he can manage a 3 hour and 40 min A time from a 45 minute nap...but not a 3.75 A time after 1.5 hour nap? It just doesn't add up...

I'm not sure he's quite ready for 1 nap just yet but I do understand your yearning to do it.

Don't apologize for posting. We're here for you. I just wish I could figure out what's going on.

Did he have any NW last night?

[empowered mama]

Thank you Sarah - if it weren't for my BW friends, I would be so alone!

What you say makes a good point....but what about the day's length?  Wouldn't a 13ish hr day be cause for OT maybe?

He had a brief NW around 11 last night but resettled quickly.  He just seems so tired in the morning - crying and eye rubbing - that I can't imagine him being UT. 

Maybe I could try a 30 or 20 min AM nap again and try for the long PM which would make our day shorter (though still unsure as to how to push the day out).  Do you have a guess as to what an estimate 2nd A time would be after those times?

I keep going back and forth between, "I can fix this" to "just let it go" - wish I could live in the tension of both, but it is just maddening!

Thanks for being there with me 

[Jiinx]

I do agree he's OT though. My lo would do EWs..but would do a happy EW. He wakes up crying and you have to feed him right? Wendy used to give water in the morning with Finn when he was EW. Does he do bottles? I'm wondering if you could wean that feed as I'm suspecting that it's more of a habit than anything else.

I think he's accumulating OT through the day. I think it's right from the beginning of the day...just bc 1.5 hours of sleep with a 3.75 A time is very reasonable. He's 11 months..I think he should be able to handle 4 hours soon, if not already.

[Jiinx]

How'd it go today, EM?

[empowered mama]

TY Sarah....

Well today - had an EW at 5, tried to settle with ssh/pat and going nowhere so I fed and back to sleep until 6:45.  Maybe it is a habit?  But I do know that he is definitely OT - this kid is the king of OT I do believe. 

1st A = shaved off 5 min to start, so 3h25 - nap 45 min

2nd A = tried to take off 10 min, so 3.5 - woke after 1h5min; seemed UT

I can't really get that long PM nap without a minimum of 3.75 A time it seems.  I am considering cutting the AM nap again, but unsure about the 2nd A.

He doesn't really do bottles - I BF him at the EW.  I could try diluting a bottle, but I have big doubts that he would go back to sleep afterward, since it seems that BF really helps relax him enough to go back down, YKWIM? 

IDK - really unsure what route to take right now??

[Tweakster]

Hi there, I think at 11 mths you would need to think about not feeding him back down.  I know it works, and he's getting more sleep that way, but it's not helping him with the independent sleeping part of training and that's really what you need him to be doing when he's waking still tired.  He needs to go back to sleep on his own.  So yeah, it means shush/pat or some form of GW to let him know that 'hey, if you are still tired go back to sleep LO' and it means doing it until it's time to get up, yes.  Shush/pat isn't going to work if he knows that you will only do it so long and then BF him.  He will wait until the BF.  It may mean some rough days at first, but it will help to teach him to go back to sleep if he hasn't had enough.  At the very least, he needs to be able to manage himself in the morning until you get up.

In the above post you mention that he's comforted by the BF and needs it to go back down, therefore it's a prop.  He's not truly hungry, he doesn't need that feed for sustenance. 

What we did at the EW which was a really bad habit was to give him a small bottle of milk in his crib.  We didn't even stick around.  Just handed it to him and left.  He would drink it and go back on his own.  It helped to take us out of the equation a little bit, but it was still a prop and a bad habit for his teeth.  We didn't do it long because we knew it was not the way forward.

If you are still getting a short PM nap even on a high A time then I would suggest cutting back the AM nap to 20 or 30 mins.  The middle A is then around 2 hr 30 - 3 hrs, possibly more if he's a real high A time kid.