How to get independant sleep when they just stand in their cot???

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Sorry to hear that you are having so much trouble. To be completely honest with you, I totally disagree. If your lo is 10 months, he should be making 2-1 transition. 2-1 transition usually start between 9 - 12 months, so you are definitely in the right age range, AND you are seeing all the signs from EW to PM nap resistance. My DD, who is now 2.5 years, did 2-1 transition by 11 months, doing 1 nap mid-day around 11:00 or 12:00. Makes for a weird eating schedule and she had to take her lunch really early but that's what she did. Then, we slowly pushed the time back until she finally started doing PM nap at 1:00ish by the time she was 15 months.  My DS at 10 months is also showing signs, and he does short AM nap in the morning just to get him by, so to speak, and then he goes down for long nap in afternoon. Before shortening AM nap, he was also doing EW at 4:30, having middle of the night parties, and doing long AM nap and resisting PM nap. So, I would definitely suggest you tweak routine and see if he is ready to do 2-1 transition? I mean, if he's tired, he wouldn't be getting up at 5:00 in the morning, right? (we'd hope, anyway!)

[DM588]

Hey ladies - so last night...what a result - asleep at 7pm and he didn't wake until 6.45am this morning (only ever done that late wake up once)!!! Even then he played happy in his cot like he used to and actually laid back down a few times as if to go to sleep!!! I went in and got him up at 7am otherwise i worried that his AM nap would get too late which would result in PM nap being late and then bedtime resistance due to UT!!!!


So although that is great (and i just pray to god that it is his routine tweak helping us and nothing else that he may decide to throw back at us in a few days!), I did struggle with nap times today!!! For example, I 'wanted' him to have 1st nap about 9.30-10am (at 3hr ish A time) for 45mins so up at 10.30am ish and then 2nd nap would be at 2.30pm at 4hr A time!!! This was where i struggle...long nap 2.30pm-4pm would mean his 3pm bottle would either need to be early which would mean he probably wouldn't take much, or really late at 4pm??? Also bedtime of 7pm at 3hr A time - not sure if he would be completely ready for sleep by then. Thats what i was aiming for/thinking of, this is what happened:

1st nap - 9.50-10.35am (after a struggle, as was starting to panic nap would be too late)
2nd nap - 3.15-4.30pm!!! (was out at the shops and had a huge battle, he would normally sleep easily in pushchair!! Showed tired signs at 2pm but just kept screaming wanting to be picked up, then put back down again etc etc. Was a complete nightmare and embarrassment)
BT 7.30pm (asleep by then)

My question....what would you suggest for nap times here giving that he really does need long A times to settle well. If he sets himself up now for say 7am wake up his ideal naps going on his cues would be like this:

1st nap 10.30am - 11.15am
2nd nap 3.15pm - 4.45pm (way too late to get a bedtime of 7-7.30pm)

would it work if i did a long AM nap say 10.30am - 12pm and then short CN at 4-4.30pm then bed time 7pm?? A friend of mine does this and works spot on - she does not use BW but i just wandered after hearing those nap times if it would work better with us to ensure DS is really ready for BT??? Thoughts??? x

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Hey, DM, what a fantastic night for you! Glad things went well for you. 

IKWYM about struggling with nap times. It does get tricky when A times are long. Sometimes nap time runs into feeding times, etc. In your case, I would do bottle at 4:00, late rather than early. Whenever you think that their next milkfeed will run into naptime, you can give yogurt as a snack sometime before naptime. Then, your lo can get a serving of dairy and you won't feel so pressed to give bottle right away.

Your long AM nap vs. long PM nap question... IMHO, it doesn't really matter. If you think that long AM nap fits better into your routine, then do that. What will probably end up happening is that AM nap will get pushed farther and farther back as your lo gets older and can handle even longer A time, and eventually you can drop the PM catnap.

Having said that, most people opt to have long PM nap because of daycare, nursery, preschool schedule has them napping in the afternoon with play/curriculum/school/instruction happening during the day. So, sometimes it's just easier if los are trained to have long nap in PM instead of AM. Plus, PM is usually the "bewitching" hour, so for MOST los, it's better for them to have their long nap then since they are more alert and happy in the mornings.

Personally, my DS gets up from PM nap around 4:00 or 4:30 sometimes, and it doesn't seem to affect his BT much, mostly because A times typically shorten in the evening anyway because the day has caught up to him by then.

So, long answer to your question... do what you think works best for your lo. As long as it's consistent and he's well rested as well as stimulated the right amount of time, you can do long AM nap or long PM nap. It doesn't matter. 

[DM588]

Great thanks for that Emma. Well at the moment he seems to be happiest if he has 1hr AM nap and 1hr 15mins PM nap!!! I know neither is really short or long but he seems too tired and grumpy quickly if he has less than that AM and then if i give him too long for PM it starts running too late to get a good A before BT!!!?? So right now that is working for him as his nights are great and we have also gotten rid if the EW without even worrying about that!! Was just focusing on getting STTN back!!!

Yes IKWYM about Long/short AM/PM naps and which way round - i didn't think it would matter either. Not sure as yet which way will work but I'm thinking more towards long AM nap for us as we tend to go out in the afternons and therefore he's more likely to get the chance to have a good nap AM and then an on-the-go nap for PM!!! It just gets confusing when, as you say - that long AM nap gets pushed back later and later which will mean i can't go out anywhere until he's woken which may not be until early afternoon!!! Hmmmm....one for me to really think about!!

Anyway - you've been an amazing help for me and DS over these past few days/weeks so wanted to just say a huge thank you!!! I will keep you posted on our progress!!! I also think we're heading in the right direction for independant sleep again - although it still may be a little while before we get there!! But he happily lets me leave the room for a few mins now!!!! watch this space!!! xxxx

[DM588]

hmmmmm, after about a week of real success we're back where we started . The last 2 nights he has woken and just screams until i go in!! Whereas a few nights ago i was hearing him wake during the night but he would re-settle himself!!!! I haven't changed anything so i guess this is just a bit of regression? also the night before last i was able to leave him at BT only going in once when he hurt himself from banging his head and he went to sleep on his own after 20mins!! Last night he took over 1.5hrs to go to sleep although i was able to leave his room! (until the end where he needed help actually falling asleep). I was so frustrated as i was aiming for 6pm BT due to 4am EW. It was 7.50pm by the time he eventually went and then was up at 1.30am!! I did even try to APOP just to get him asleep earlier but he just kept laughing at me! He did have an extra 10minute sleep early evening which i know probably made him be able to have 3hr A time from that point!! he had perfect naps in the pushchair yesterday as we were out all day but we left only 30mins after i woke him from his PM nap (of 1.5hrs) and half an hour into our 45min journey home he fell asleep in the car!! Not much i could do about that!!!

Do I just carry on with the normal routine with early BT until we get back on track?? Any ideas how long the regression can take??? I was sooo happy with his progress a few days ago and even had no EW!!! Arghhh!!! (i guess at least i know it can all end as quickly as it starts!!)
xxx

[Grants]

Hi there!

I know what you mean when you said my LO sounds like yours! It is scary to see how similar they are!
I haven't got much to tell you as you know my LO is doing exactly the same thing as yours. Yesterday he skipped his afternoon nap completely! It is the second time he does this and it drove me insane. I was reading Tracy's books yesterday and I think she would say to you to stick to the routine as relapses are very common. Another thing she said that caught my attention is that between 8 months and 12 months it is very common to see variations in the routine. She said that some days babies might skip they morning nap and some days the afternoon nap and they might resist sleep as well. But she said to try to go with the flow instead of trying to reach for a quick fix that might create later problems. She says:” go with the flow and remember it will last only a few weeks” Easier said than done! It is just a fine line isn’t it?! When do we know to go with the flow and when do we know it is time to change the routine??

[DM588]

I know exactly what you are saying!! !!Not easy. What book are you reading of hers?? Is it BWSAYP??? If so what chapter is it - i was trying to have a quick look the other day and couldn't find anything related to this!!! x

[Grants]

Hi hun,

How are you doing? How is your LO doing at the moment? I hope he is back on track.

The book I was reading is BWSAYP . Chapter 6. I think it is on the part she explain how to do PU/PD for older babies. (8 months to a year).
I had a bit of an insight after reading it. First of all I need to try and stop controlling my LO routine too much. I won’t be able to do it to the letter as now he is a bit older and is changing very quickly. And I also decided to relax a bit and go with the flow as Tracy put it. Today for example he skipped his morning nap. When I saw he wasn’t going to fall asleep I just took him out of the cot and started playing with him. I gave him some lunch ( at 11am) and he went to bed straight away after lunch ( I had no problems at all putting him down). If he has less than 2 hours nap I will do BT earlier and if he has at least 2 hours I will try do normal BT. All depends on his mood and how he is reacting etc. I feel much calmer now that I have decided to stop controlling my LO routine so much!  Another thing I also realized is that I was so stressed and tired that I was not giving my LO a lot of physical activities .Plus it has been raining for the last 10 days and we haven’t been spending much time at the park either. I’m going to try and take 1 day at the time and see how things go. 
Please keep us updated on your progress.
xxx
 

[DM588]

Hey, that sounds great!! Glad to hear you're sounding much more positive!! I totally agree that sometimes we do justneed to let them take their own routines as long as we do a little guidance!! My DS woke screaming at about 4am this morning - managed to settle with lifting out and as i walked away (i though he was back asleep) he clambered to the side and started sobbing - i then got a whiff of a dirty nappy so lifted him out and changed him - i also then noticed that his baby-grow was soaking wet on one side!! I felt so terrible for him (i think it must have been sweat??) so i took him in to our bed and he went back to sleep until 6am!!!

Today i went out for the whole day with a friend and her LO and he has been an angel!! he ended up having an early 1st nap in the car at 8.50am for an hour and then also only had 3.5hrs A time until 2nd Nap where he fell asleep in pushchair. h ethen slept for 1.5hrs and woke at 2.30pm. he stayed awake all the way home until i put him to bed which i was aiming for 6.30pm but he fell asleep on his bottle at 6.15pm (the long last A really wore him out).!!!

Fingers crossed for tonight!! I totally agree with the extra activity too - they really need stimulating and wearing out now.

I'm going to go and have a look at that chapter and will update you with progress in a day or 2. Hope you get some good nights and BT's. xxx

[Grants]

Brilliant news!!!! 

It sounds like you had a busy day with your LO!!!I'm sure he will sleep through tonight!   He had lots of good sleep during the day and also a lot of activity!!

xx

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Sorry ladies, as it seems I've been out of touch. I'm having work done on my house, so internet access has been on and off. Mainly trying to keep the kids out of the contractors' way, kwim?

Anyway, totally agree that we just need to relax a bit sometimes. Give them consistency, guidance, but try to roll with it when things change or they have an "off" day or series of days (lol!) I had a really "off" night, with my DS waking up at least 6 times last night, so don't know what's up with that, but each time, of course, he's standing in his crib, sobbing. I finally got so tired by 4 AM that I had to APOP and take him to bed with me, just to catch a few hours of sleep. Of course he slept great in our bed!! SA, I tell ya!

Anyway, keep it up. They definitely need a lot of attention, stimulation, activity changes at this age. But with a drop of a hat, they can get OT/OS, too. Plus, naps are so on/off with 2-1 transition, it's hard to have consistency. But, we somehow manage, right?

[Grants]

I also had a really off night with my DS last night. He woke up at least 8 times. He wasn't sobbing but just moaning/ crying a bit. I'm not sure if it is because of teething( I gave him a bit of Calpol but he still woke up at least 4 times after a gave him the med) or if it is because of OT ( is it possible to get OT even though he had 1 2.5 hour nap? This is normally what he has in total during the day). Yesterday he woke up at 6am had lunch at 11am and slept from 11:10 to 14:30! (Only 1 nap for the first time ever) Then he went to bed at 7pm! But today he woke up at 5:20 am, so I knew he wouldn’t last until 11am again. I took him to the park to try to keep him awake at least until 9am. It worked. I will let him sleep for 1 hour as we are going out for lunch with a friend and her LO .My DS never sleeps for very long in the stroller so I know he will probably have only 30 or 45 min nap once we are out.

I wish I could put my DS on our bed like you Emma!  I just never managed to relax when he is in our bed so I just kept on going in to his room when he was crying the whole night.

Anyway we all seem to be surviving somehow!! (Lol) Especially you, Emma with 2 LOs. I don’t know how you cope!?!?!  I take my hat off for people who have 2 or more kids!!!

[DM588]

well we didn't have a whole night of sleep . Woke at 1.30am wide awake - and realised he can now play with the camera on the end of his cot - so that got moved!! He was happy to play with the camera but obviously i couldn't let him so i had to go in!! And then he wouldn't let me out!!! Like you Emma I end up taking him to our bed and DHcuddles him and he'll fall asleep - otherwise i am his climbing frame if he's left to roam our bed - lol!!! So he was up at 6am and i'm just going to let him take his own course today - i normally try to get him down for 1st nap by 10am so as to not push the day back too much - but as yet there are no sleepy signs (its 9.45am) and he's happily playing on the floor by me right now!!! I'm just going to let him do what he wants today (with a little guidance for sleep times etc)

I'm starting to think 2 good naps of 1hr and 1.5hrs IS toomuch for my DS - he's just wants to party when he wakes up!!!! I've got to be tougher with just having a short nap like 30mins - i just feel bad waking him as he just rolls over to ignore me and carry on sleeping!!! Or today we may just get one good nap??? I have trouble if i have to go out in the car as he'll normally fall asleep regardless of whether he's tired or not and then that really screws our day up as he'll end up with too much sleep or a CN too late in the day!! But what do i do??? Stay in for a month?

Yep - we seem to be surviving - and getting used to sleepless nights again . oh well - they are more than worth it!!!! xxx

[Grants]

I don't know about you but if I let my DS sleep too long in the morning he always wants to take a very late nap in the afternoon. So I took your advice and only let him sleep around 45 min in the morning. Today I'm only letting him sleep for 1 hour cos we are going out for rest of the day and I don't want him to get over tired when we are out.
I think 1.5 in total its enough for my DS ( if he has 2 naps but if he has 1 nap,as he did yesterday,as long as he is awake by 13:30/14:00. it won't mess with his BT.(By the way I made a mistake on my last post. He slept from 1:10 to 13:30= 2.5 hours and not 3.5 lol)

DM ,
do you think your DS was awake at 1:30 am cos he had a very busy day yesterday?!? I'm think my DS might have been overtired as well cos he only had 1 nap. What do you reckon?

I hope our DSs have a good night of sleep tonight!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Well, I'm there with you, girls! Just to reiterate, BW is all about having a consistent ROUTINE (as opposed to a consistent SCHEDULE). So, I wouldn't worry too much, DM, about your lo not going down by 10:00 AM if he's still going strong at 9:45, kwim? It's all about watching and knowing your los behavior and cries so you can act/react accordingly. So, I think it's a good thing that we can be flexible with our time-table, depending on our various schedule of activities, chores, etc. Good call, Grants, with letting your lo sleep longer if you are planning an outing.

About being OT/OS when going down to 1 nap. Yes, they can still get OT/OS, even though total nap time is the same, mainly because they are getting all their stimulation in one longer segment of time, vs getting that stimulation with a nap break in between. So, it might have been the reason for your NWs. Although, it is strange that your lo woke up several times in the night. He could be teething or maybe he is growing through 9 month GS? How is he eating or formula/bm consumption during the day? Is he 9 months? (Sorry, I didn't know your DS's age...) I think the reason for my NWs the other night might have been out of hunger since I noticed my bm supply has gone down. . .but that's sort of off topic here, isn't it? Sorry.

And DM, if your lo is waking at 1:30 getting ready to party, he might not have been tired enough. Maybe UT/US? What did you do that day? KWYM about hating to wake our los, though. Especially that morning nap, I dread going in after 30 minutes to wake him, but if I don't, his PM nap is REALLY late, and then it does ruin BT. But, how's he doing with actually going down on his own after standing in his cot?

I've decided that my lo KNOWS HOW to do it. He chooses not to, sometimes, because on some occasions, he'll sit back down, lay back down, and go back to sleep. On other occasions, he just stands there and cries and wants me. So, I know I'm not supposed to take him to bed with me, (and honestly with DD1, she NEVER did that and still never has), but with 2 los, only 1.5 years apart, I'm so darn tired that I cheat a little. But, Grants, I hate doing it, and in the end, I'm always worried about rolling over DS or having him, worse, fall OFF the bed. It gets a little crazy with two, managing both nap schedules and nighttime sleep routines. It seems one of them is always UT while the other is always OT just because for the most part, I try to coordinate their sleep times, otherwise, I would never get out! But, I am also convinced that my los communicate with each other telepathically, because when 1 has a bad nap or bad night sleep, so does the other! But, it DOES get easier once they transition to 1 nap and they are older and are much better at independent sleep.

Okay, gotta go. Believe it or not, both los are asleep now, and I'd better get started on dinner prep. Multi-tasking.