Need help lengthening out day, currently 4:30 a.m.-5 p.m.

[alohahellokitty]

Sounds like she will only do a 11hr night. What happens if you try a somewhat fixed nap and bt?

If she's not I'll or teething I'd work to move her day backwards.

Tbh I'm wondering if she needs more A time. Wasn't she UT last time she did these same antics? When she's truly tired she goes right down and when she's ut she fights?

If it were me I'd start pushing her slowly and just watch her. She did great after that later bt (due to the meeting)

I might be totally off but it's just how it looks to me. But you know Sophie the best and are there to watch her cues on how she's tolerating the extra A time.

Congrats on the new home!

[katie80]

It's not that you're missing things, Christine.  I really think she's tough to read!  All the indicators I see would point to OT, as that's how Claire is, but usually it's different with Sophie! 

So, before I read Liana's post, I was thinking that you're second point was really worth a try.
 

* I have an inkling that maybe she can handle more a.m. A time and p.m. A time not as much. A week ago I was doing 4:30 minute A before bed and she went down right away and didn't whine at all through the night. Where as now, she kinda whines through the 11 hours of sleep. Not a lot but she will here and there. Maybe I just need to try 4:30 A tomorrow before bed and if she goes down like a charm then maybe she's OT at bed, and if she still puts up a fight then it's a signal to me that she's still UT and that I can push BT even later, which honestly would be nice because then I get a later wake up...

At least, then you'll know if she's UT or OT.

Then, I read Liana's post, and I still think it's worth a try tomorrow to do the less A time before bed.  But, I also think the fixed nap and bt are worth a try.  So, after you do the shortened A time and see what happens, I think you should really do that.  When I first switched Claire to one nap, I did a fixed time and kept it there for a good two weeks.  After that, I was able to easily see the A time that worked best for her and I went from there.  However, it turned out that after that, the nap always fell within the 30 min around the fixed time anyway, so it really worked to set her clock, iykwim.  Bedtime was pretty fixed too, but if the nap was quite short, I brought it forward 30 min.

It does seem like if she does 11 hr nights no matter the bedtime, then it's worth it to push that day out.  But, I know it's hard to deal with the crying at bedtime, so if that's what happens when you push her, you might just have to go a little slower. 

[alohahellokitty]

Looks like we were posting at the same time.

I think Sophie is at the age now that she just crashes when tired. When not tired she fights b/c her body isn't tired enough for a nap (bt) so she has energy to put up a fight.

I could be wrong but I DONT think a hour and 15 min nap is OT from too much A. I think she could use a bit more and that *might* give you a longer more restorative nap. Same with the fighting at bedtime, I think she's UT tbh. I've found the more I push Anna's nap out (but not to the point she's exhausted) the longer nap I get.

This is also the age where you have to take into consideration what activities she's doing and figure that into her nap/bt. This is the age (for Anna-Li) it became much less about exact A time minuets and much more about reading cues and looking at the activities we've just done. Running at the park all morning will wear her out MUCH more than playing inside the house.

This is also the age where she did NOT fight naps/bt b/c of OT. OT became evident now in EW'ings (less hours than she normally sleeps), fussiness, NW'ings....

Yes reading Sophie's cues is a hard thing b/c she's so sensitive. It was very difficult to *figure* anna out. Sensitive lo's fuss a lot more and its difficult to figure out what they want. BUT good news, when these lo's get older they start asking for naps (once they can communicate properly). I always give Anna the choice after lunch to play for a few minuets or for 'nappy down time' and she always chooses nap time. As Sophie gets older she'll become more communicative and will be able to tell you when she's tired. Until then I'd REALLY work to tune into her. Yes these lo's fuss about everything: bored, hot, cold, hungry, thirsty, need a new activity, need another new activity, need to run, need a snack, need ANOTHER new activity.... exc............ LOL!! These lo's tend to get VERY bored VERY fast!!! You just gotta keep her changing things CONSTANTLY and I bet you she'll push her day out in NO time!!!!

Here's what Anna-Li did before nap time today.
wake up/ milk time while I feed baby
breakfast
play with the baby
play with her kitchen
play-doh
Color
play with stickers
color with markers
play with stamps
play with puzzles
play again with the baby
try on mommy's clothes from the dirty clothes basket
play with bubbles in the kitchen
play outside in the sprinklers (baby went down for a nap)
dig in dirt outside
play with toy lawn mower
play on swing set
Eat a snack
back in side to play in her bedroom with her little people
play with legos
watch a 30 min baby learning dvd
play with her baby doll
eat lunch
then................... asked for her nap (thank God, mommy was exhausted!!! LOL)

To me this was a time (sophie's age) where I really had to make the disconnect from Anna-Li the baby and Anna-Li the growing toddler. I put all her baby toys up to save for the next baby (now she's seeing them again as Jace plays with them) and got her some more age appropriate stuff. Lots of imaginative playing toys (play kitchen, baby dolls exc...) then I played with her a lot and kinda 'taught' her how to imaginatively play. Then after a while she caught on and start doing it by herself. melissa and doug make great chunky puzzles that she can start using (2-4 pieces), just squishing play-doh at this age is fun. Going outside early before it gets too hot (i know eczema) and letting her play with rocks, leaves, flowers exc....... Going to the pet store to look at the fish, cats, dogs, rabbits exc..... playing in water outside, going to the park early in the morn

She will get less bored and be able to entertain herself better and stay awake (happily) longer if doing what she's craving to learn.

[alohahellokitty]

Katie is right, after you figure out about how long her normal morning A/After noon A is and she gets in the swing of things her nap will fall within the same time (give or take 30 min's as katie said) and same for bedtime. I find that high leveled activities/teething/illness moves it a bit but that's about it. We do the SAME thing around the same time every day now.

That is of course once you move her day backwards to where you'd like it at.

[alohahellokitty]

Oh one more thing Christine, I would try to keep Sophie busy with new and interesting activities and just watch her around the time you think she should be tired. Just observe her carefully. If she fusses, change activities and if she fusses again its probably nap time. If she plays happily then she's just needing more stimulating A time.

I found I can rely on the clock for my textbook/angel Jace but the older Anna-Li gets the more I have to rely on cues as she's sensitive and every day can be different for her.

[Tao]

This is good advice Liana. What types of activities do you have Anna Li doing? I feel like maybe I"m not stimulating her enough. We usually take her to the park every morning and then she has her books to read, we have puzzles and building blocks for her to play with. We try to take her swimming 3 times a week but sometimes I feel like we need to be doing more?

You make a good point because before BT tonight, she was playing very calmly. No fussing at all but I just saw the clock and though, oo time to put her down so maybe she WASN"T tired enough...hmm...

[alohahellokitty]

Well for me it all came down to one night I was about to pop with Jace (9months preg) and Anna-Li was 18 months. My parents were over and I was about to put Anna-Li to bed (whom was happily playing with her Papa). My Dad was begging to let her stay up and said she wasn't even tired yet. I informed him it HAD been 5 hours of A time and she WAS in fact tired. Well my Mom jumped in and pleaded so I conceded but was so upset b/c I KNEW i'd have to do the clean up with nw'ings and ew'ings. Well she stayed up for at least 45 min's longer if not a bit more, she slept a 12 hour night and didn't have a single nw'ing and it didn't take her 30+ min's to fall asleep.

She missed so many fun things b/c I was so wrapped up with her 'A' times. Going to the zoo with her two little friends her age (they were all born a few weeks apart, their parents are our old college buddies) and so many other activities.

Looking back she really needed more A time and that's when I threw the clock watching out the window and really   got to know her and what she was trying to tell me. I have general times in which I start to watch her but that's about it. I now stick to a general nap/bt and just move it up or back a bit depending on what her cues are telling me. It took a little time to figure her out but once I did its now priceless!!

Try to take a few days to get in tune with her. Make sure she's not fussing b/c she's bored, under stimulated, hungry, thirsty exc..........

If you attend church, putting her in the nursery with toddlers her own age is GREAT! Anna-Li LOVES that now!! It took a bit to make that adjustment but she loves it. (she always naps WAY longer after church b/c she's so tired from playing all morning with the other toddlers)

swimming and the park are great for her!!! I bet she loves that! You might get her involved in a play group with kids her age. At this age they really enjoy kids their own age to socialize and learn to interact with during play. This was great for me too b/c I could really pick their mom's brain's about what their kids were into and I added that to my list of activities for Anna.

If you are able to afford and she's so inclined a mommy and me music group might interest her. There are all kinds of classes you can do, but it doesn't really take a ton of money to give them stimulation if there isn't the extra budget for it.

So many things in nature.

You could get her some side walk chalk to scribble with. Drive out to the country and when you see horses/cow's exc pull over and show them to her. Just give her a shovel and a bucket, let her dig in the dirt, and make a big mess. The messier the better!! They love to play with rocks/leaves/flowers

Anna loved at this age to 'play' cleaning with the broom/ dust pan exc....

I basically just keep the activities going with Anna (regardless of the clock) until I start to see she's getting tired. And when I do lay her down I realize that its always about the same time that she starts to wear out.

[katie80]

Liana, you're getting my vote for Mom of the Year!     You're really in tune with your LOs and have so many good ideas and advice!! 

You make a good point because before BT tonight, she was playing very calmly. No fussing at all but I just saw the clock and though, oo time to put her down so maybe she WASN"T tired enough...hmm...

So, then what happened when you put her down, Christine?

Liana has made great points about watching Sophie carefully instead of thinking about A times.  I was also super wrapped up in them, and really went by the clock and not Claire's cues until she got to be about 13/14 mo.  I couldn't figure out why she took a great morning nap, but not afternoon.  Then, one day I didn't get her down at what I thought was the right time; it was about 30 min later.  And wouldn't you know it, she took an 1.5 hr afternoon nap.    

I know Sophie is pretty hard to read, but maybe you could even chart it for a few days, to see if something like changing an activity or offering water or a snack staves off any fussiness and then go from there.  I also think this is where a set time may come in handy.  Because after a couple weeks, she may even out and you can really 'see' where that nap needs to be. 

To me this was a time (sophie's age) where I really had to make the disconnect from Anna-Li the baby and Anna-Li the growing toddler.

This is another great point.  It was about the same age for Claire, but I really didn't *get it* until a couple months later, around 18 mo.  She started to really test the boundaries, and I realized it was because I was still looking at her like a baby rather than a toddler.  It's amazing how much these little people soak up about the world around them.  When I started looking at her more age-appropriate, we got into a better groove.  I'm not in any way trying to say that you're not doing these things, just that I wish I'd realized at the time!  Hence, my vote for Liana as Mom of the Year!   

[Tweakster]

Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread AND you are getting great great advice from the gals here, but just my 2p :-)

I wouldn't put her to bed at 5 or too early on a regular basis, OT or not.  It's not helping your day any.  She's capable of sleeping a good length night, she's capable of tacking sleep on to her night, so give her the chance to do it.  Early bedtime, particularly for those early wakers is a good plan B for when the nap is a non-event or she's ill, or a when you just can't do anything with them.  But it's going to set her body clock too much at this age if she keeps going down too early and will be hard to undo!

So if it were me, and it often has been, I wouldn't do anything before 6:30 unless she's completely off the wall and you can't calm her down or distract her.  Activities help here as Liana has mentioned.

I still find that it's so hard with her. She's really really hard to figure out. I don't know if it's just because I'm not in tune enough or her touchiness makes it tough. Because she's a sensitive baby overall, it's hard to know when fussiness means "i'm tired" or "I'm just annoyed" or I'm bored. Because she gets upset over little things really easily. LIke if I change her activity constantly, she'll be fine but if she's playing with something for too long she gets annoyed and starts throwing it and doesn't want it.

I'm definitely still trying to learn every day.

This is the dictionary definition of a toddler.  They have so much to say but can't say it yet.  And they really only know how to fuss and cry to get our attention.  We are starting to ignore some of that fussiness until Finn can actually give us an indication what he wants - we ask him more 'what would you like? would you like to eat? would you like a hug? what is it?'  Often he will just think about it and then go do his own thing - he likely doesn't really know what he wants but more importantly he understands that we don't know either!  There's no incentive for them to communicate if we cater to everything they want.  We need them to start to tell us what they need    Some kids need more patience and perseverance than others.  And some need the circus and carnival all day long.  They crave stimulation like a drug.  Liana and Katie have given you great tips on serving up the stimuli.

It's nothing you are doing or not doing Christine, Sophie is changing the game and you just need to catch up - or sometimes we will just always be one step behind anyway before they move on to the next thing.  Last week I was on here panicking about Finn and fighting bedtime, I was worried because bedtime was like the one smooth element to our day and to have that go wonky, well it was scary.  Turns out he was too rested from his long nap and UT at bedtime.  We were trying to pat an UT kid to sleep, sometimes up to 30-40 mins.  If you can imagine lol  So it's not just you hon, it's all of us.  We are just on one big learning curve together 

[alohahellokitty]

OMG I am DEF not the mom of the year!! You should see my house! Its currently a total wreck! Having these two so close in age is killing me and my house! LOL!!!!! Katie you are too sweet!!! Katie, you are so good at A times! You've helped me with both my LO's when I've been at a total loss!!!

I think as first time bw'ing mom's well all do the clock watching!!! I find myself doing it with Jace as well. And when I do put him down 'right on the dot' of when I think is 'A' time is he does these crazy short naps. I think he's had a A jump and I've been so busy with both of them I haven't been watching his cues and just putting him down too early. I'm sure as soon as I start lengthening his A time tomorrow he'll start giving me better naps again.

Katie your so right!! I didn't get it that Anna-Li was no longer a baby many months too late!!! She was getting so cranky with me and my parents told me she was bored out of her mind and was no longer a baby.... so I should stop treating her as such! LOL!! They were so right!!! As soon as I packed up the baby stuff and got her more age appropriate stuff and allowed her to start growing up she really started being much more compilable!

Christine, it sounds like you already do age appropriate stuff with Sophie so that's great!! Just keep expanding her, she'll love it!! One thing I would recommend is to ROTATE her toys!!!!!!!! I can't stress this enough! Anna-Li starts going mad and getting bored if she sees the same things every single day. I know some mom who can rotate toys every month but my Anna-Li needs them rotated weekly. She's a busy girl and needs new things to work on weekly or she becomes irritable and destructive just trying to create something to stimulate her.

I've got 4 tubs of toys and I divided her toys (from c-mas, bdays and such) into them.  (leave one set out and put the other 4 in tubs) I did purchase a few new 'older' toys and added them to the tubs. I now rotate those every week. So she doesn't see things for 5 weeks or so and then they become almost new to her. Now if Sophie will play with a set for longer I wouldn't do it that frequently but you might find as she gets older you have to do it more often to keep her happy. I put a couple in her bedroom to encourage independent play (the newest and most exciting ones) and then I put the rest in the living room so she can see me while she plays.

[alohahellokitty]

OMG Wendy you are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo right!!!!!!!!!!! We were posting at the same time. They keep us on our toes don't they!!!! These LO's!!!!!!!!!

I agree I would be VERY careful at this age of continuing constant early bt's. You don't want to set Sophie's clock to keep going to bed early and waking early.

Look how great she did that one night when she went to bed at 7pm!!!! You got a great wake up!

I'd really start to move things backwards now. I think she's ready for it!

[Tao]

Oh my goodness. This is SOOO much great advice. I feel like there should be an area on BWer to post great threads!! I just realized that I totally missed a few of your posts Liana and Katie and I am SO glad that I backtracked because the list of activities, map of your day Liana and ideas of what to do with Sophie made me realize that I TRULY am not stimulating her enough!

I also like the idea of the set nap and bedtime. It seemed to work the last time and when it went wonky, it looks like I just needed to add a bit more A. I think a part of me is so amazed that her A times have jumped SO much. She's only 15 months now but I guess every toddler is different. Wendy, thanks for your insight and I am going to try the later bedtime because as Liana also said I think she's in a state where UT=fight, sleepy enough=instantly falling asleep. The later bedtime will also really help push our mornings out so I can give her a nap at a more decent hour.

I have a question with the set nap time: Let's say I push her BT tonight and she sleeps at say 6:30 or 7 and therefore she wakes up later tomorrow morning at 6 p.m. Would I then keep the same morning nap time now that morning A will be shorter, or should I then adjust her morning nap to a bit later if she wakes later? My goal ultimately is to focus on her cues, and until she shows them more and until I am more in tune with them, i think the set naps will help.

I have learned so much from her being home this summer. It's amazing how much we see when we spend the day with them. In a few weeks i have to go back to work, and I am trying to get dad more involved now for that transition. It's tough, I wish I could be the one to stay home with her because I feel like I'm really making progress now and learning so much from all of you, but health insurance and stability is important too...I guess =).

[Tao]

By the way I think all 3 of you deserve Mom of the Year!! My best friend just had a baby and I was telling her about this site and how I wouldn't be sane and have the patience that I do without all of you. I was teary eyed, talking to her about you gals because you are SUCH an important part of my life even though I have never met you, I feel so close to all of you. Thank you. I'd give you all a big hug if I could.

[katie80]

I was teary eyed, talking to her about you gals because you are SUCH an important part of my life even though I have never met you, I feel so close to all of you. Thank you. I'd give you all a big hug if I could.

So sweet, Christine!     I feel the same way often!  I have great friends IRL, but a lot of them parent differently than I do, and it's so nice to have ladies who understand what I'm trying to accomplish in a day!

In terms of the set time, when I did it, Claire was waking anywhere from about 6:15 - 7 am.  So, I set the time at 12 pm.  I felt like it was doable, and even if she woke nearer to 6 am, it wasn't too long.  Some days she would fall asleep right away, and some would take her longer, so along with the nap length, that helped me to find the best time for her.  If Sophie's waking between 5:15 - 6:00 am, I'd probably set it around 11:00 or 11:30 am.  Does that sound reasonable to you?

[alohahellokitty]

Oh we'd give you a huge hug too!!!!!!!!!

TBH Katie is right having a general set time for nap is a good idea. I would make SURE she's not UT for that nap though. You will never push your day backwards if she is and she will not give you good long naps if she's ut. And then you'll get back in the vicious cycyle of ut for nap and ot for bed...... thus never moving your day out.

Really watch her and give her new stimulus when she's bored and see how she does!

As she starts to sleep in later I would move her nap back as she tolerates it, that is the only way you'll be able to get her bt set at a later time. (thus the later wake up)

Good luck!