need nap help! 18 months old

[babybarr]

FFS WHOEVER TOOK MY BOY JUST GIVE HIM BACK!

No help but this is how a lot of people have felt with canines.

Did he settle?  Sorry I wasn't around at your nap time, time difference.  ((HUGS))

[*Jo*]

Yes He did settle, I sprayed rescue remedy in his mouth to help calm him and then Dh patted him till he fell asleep..
In the car earlier he fell asleep at 4.35 so I made a decision to let him sleep in the car till 5pm with dh in the car with him, then bedtime was 6.15.

I'm so lost with him.

[*Jo*]

well its 1.20am and DH has been doing Wi/Wo for the past half hour, that boy is screaming his head off, i think he may burst a blood vessel the way he is going.

This has got to be the worst  hes ever been, even when he had reflux when he was little he never was like this.....

we tried patting him but it just didnt work, so DH said no more patting, it doesnt work, nothing does so we have to stick to Wi/Wo, but im so confused, if hes in pain with these canines arent we supposed to help him, if hes OT arent we supposed to do everything we can to get him to sleep???

[LucySol]

im sure he is absolutely OT by now.What about just calling to him from the door instead of goin in or start from scratch with GW?  what happens if you just sit in the room with him...but no patting?

Have you given meds? id do bed and naptime meds and a dream med at your bedtime and maybe again early hours if needs be.i had to set my alarm to get up and give meds when we were cutting canines.

Do you think the inconsistency of patting then WIWO then patting etc is making him mad and this is behavioural?
you know him better than we do x

[Tweakster]

if hes in pain with these canines arent we supposed to help him, if hes OT arent we supposed to do everything we can to get him to sleep???

But you are Jo, you are.  There is some element of it being Caleb's responsibility, you have taught him how to sleep, guided him along this journey and learning to self-soothe, you can't do anything about the teeth coming through except medicate and be aware and at some point his body has to give in and take the sleep.  It's a phase, and a crappy one, but you really really are doing everything you can.  If patting isn't working, then you need to switch it up.  I agree with Lucy, try GW, can you sit beside his crib and just let him know you are there through the bars, it will take you repeating the sleepy phrase in a monotone voice, completely relaxed and soothing - but no touching if you can get away with it, just very rhythmic - use some white noise even.  If you start to relax and calm, it will pass to Caleb, honest.

[katie80]

Hi Jo,

Many, many hugs!  We've got all four canines coming through here and it sounds so much like what you're going through.  They are definitely the worst teething experience we've had. 

I agree with what Lucy and Wendy are saying, and I think a plan and consistency would do you both good.  I am notorious for caving in when DD's teething and OT, because I feel like those are reasons for helping her.  And in the past, I think they were, but now, honestly, in the long run it never helps.  My inconsistency leads to her 'what will happen if. . .' behavior issues and it just spirals on and on.

So, decide what you want to do, GW, calling through the door, WIWO, etc.  Then stick to it for a good several days.  When I did WIWO at the beginning of canines, I gave both Tylenol (acetaminophen) and Motrin (ibuprofen) an hour before bedtime the first couple days, for DD's sake and my own piece of mind.  It took a few days to get back on track, but it was worth it.

We still have little setbacks here and there, and I get all worked up.  But, when I remind myself to stay consistent, she always does better.  I know it's so frustrating, I've been there so many times.       

[alohahellokitty]

Jo,

You are getting GREAT advice here!!!

I'm a perfectionist Mom FOR SURE and this type of chaos does my head in!!!!!!!!!! As you know we've been through it with Anna-Li for LONG periods of time during what I call 'canine hell'.

She's soooooooooooooooooooo touchy/spirited and it makes things very difficult.

One thing I KNOW for sure is these teeth are WAY worse than any other and they cause LOTS of pain. With pain comes SA. I KNOW that to be true with Anna.

Different things work for different Lo's. So I just want to share what's worked for us. That way you can hear different things that have worked for different lo's.

This is our stance with Anna right now.
#1 bt & nap time are (1) non-negotiable PERIOD! She must go to bed and must take a nap every day. I give pain meds as needed and use real vanilla extract (just a little drop rubbed in her gums, instead of orajel. Works as well and is better I've been told) before sleep times.

#2 I give LOTS of hugs/cuddles during non-sleep times. I try to be very gentle and loving.


We've gotten to the point with Anna now that even though she's cutting a new canine she goes right into bed b/c she understands its expected of her. Wi/wo works best for her. GW does NOT work as it infuriates her that we are in there and won't take her out of the crib and let her sleep on us. We are very loving but firm at bt/nap.

How we got back to it was just giving her PLENTY of warnings 10 min's out from nap/bt. We remind her over and over again of what we are about to do. Then we carry through with it. If she puts up a fuss we pop the door open and tell her to lay down its time to go night night. If she keeps it up we just do it again until she goes down. With her doing it too often will prolong the process into a hour or longer. I know you said it works better for you to do it in short increments, whatever works for your lo then do it that way. We handle nw'ings like this: if she just moans or lightly cries (doesn't need us) we just let her be until she goes back to sleep. If she stands up and is screaming bad like she 'NEEDS' us then we go and give pain meds, check her diaper, vanilla on her gums, kiss and back into bed, then walk out. If she screams b/c she needs the reassurance of us being with her then we lay next to the crib till she's out. We no longer hold her while sleeping, pat her down, lay with her in bed exc......... This is just what we've found that works for our lo and our situation (being 2 lo's who are teething and dh is gone sometimes and I might need to attend to 2nd lo so I can't hold her while sleeping all night exc.....).

This is a VERY rough time where they run around completely exhausted (b/c they short nap/refuse nap and are just more tired from teething) and in pain from the teeth. Its not pretty or a happy time at all. The behavior is terrible here, tantrums, wanting to be held CONSTANTLY exc...........

It was so overwhelming and exhausting for me the first canine! It was terrible. So I've surrendered myself to the process (stopping praying it speeds up, praying the pain is alleviated, praying she'll sleep through the night tonight exc.......) and just realized it is what it is and will be until the process is over. Then I'll get my sweet girl back again, until then its like dealing with a maniac!!!!!! Hoping or expecting anything else just set me up for complete misery. I now go to sleep early (when we are in this cycle) and prepare myself to be up early or for nw'ings and I prepare myself to deal with bad behavior during the day. It doesn't excuse it but I'm ready mentally to deal with it. When we are in this cycle I no longer wake up hoping for a great day with great naps/bt's and sweet behavior. I prepare myself for a challenging day and if its anything less I'm smiling at the end of the day. That is the ONLY way I can keep my sanity right now.

So during these cycles nap/bt are 100% NON-Negotiable and we enforce it PERIOD! We are gentle and loving but DO NOT CAVE! We can't! If we do she'll expect it EVERY time and I just can't do that with 2 lo's! Its no longer physically possible, I have 2 to care for.

So we check up on her if she's throwing a tantrum about sleeping but we do not get her out of her crib and cave. She must nap/bt. We tell her we love her and all of that but its nap/bt and we will see her in the morning/after nap.

This has worked wonders and she dives in her crib and seeks no assistance from us unless she's in bad pain in the middle of the night and we medicate cuddle then back in bed. (unless its too rough and she needs someone to lay next to her crib until she's out).

Good luck and let us know how he's doing. Poor guy, this is a super rough time for him and you guys!!

[alohahellokitty]

Oh forgot to tell you one more thing......... A times during illness/teething doesn't work for us. We have to go solely on cues. That is the only thing that we can rely on, b/c every day is so very different.

[knock0ut]

Hey Jo - big hugs to you!  You've offered me such good advice in the past that I couldn't just read this thread and not respond.  You are a fab mummy and the fact that you are desperately seeking ways to help your boy just proves that.  I think we have similar responses to our LOs being upset, and I hope the advice I'm going to give doesn't just confuse you more, as it probably conflicts with what others say.  Our DD had a horrendous time with the last tooth she cut.  We had some major screaming, major SA, high temp and major sleep disruption.  I'm sorry, but I personally really struggle with any type of crying so our approach has always been along the GW route.  With the last tooth, we resorted back to patting (and infact even some cuddling and bfing to sleep - shock horrror!) - anything to ensure DD was getting some sleep.  Once the tooth came through, we were back to GW and I can honestly say it really didn't set us back too much.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are really not coping with the crying - do what you have to do, DON'T beat yourself up about it and just be prepared to get back to where you were pre-evil tooth once its all settled down!  This is exactly the advice I need to hear when we are having a rough patch, as I always drive myself crazy telling myself we will be back to square 1.   We never end up being set back that far - probably because when you are ready to try training again, it's not the first time either you or LO have done it.
I realise some will say that consistency is key - and whilst I do agree with that on the whole, I firmly believe that during illness, we can make allowances.  I know I have a very different routine on the rare occasions that I'm ill!
Hope this helps - hang on in there, and let us know how its going.  I'm sure things will settle soon xxx

[*Jo*]

thanks ladies, again I know you all have such wonderful BTDT advice. Wi/Wo only lasted 35mins last night at the 1am wake up so that was good.

a few questions though,
Liana - I tried the set naptimes etc but  what happens if the naps just doesnt happen? so we decided 12 was the set time but it got to 1pm/1.30pm etc and the screaming kept going and he still wasnt sleeping, so how do you enforce naps when realistically hes making it impossible?
Also what happens if you get a shocking 9 hour night like what we did a few weeks ago? would you still enforce the set naptime with possible exhaustion setting in?
I cant do GW, hes spirited and ANY type of communication or my presence gets him worked up. I cant just sit in the room with him, he will scream at me for not patting him if i am anywhere near him.

Last night DH and I decided that we would BOTH get up to him when he wakes in the night, not both of us going in but one of us standing outside the door to support the other parent doing the Wi/Wo. we find that helps keep us calm knowing the other one is beside us.

We cant do any other kind of +APOP as it just doesnt work, he wont sleep in teh same bed as us, he wont be rocked/walked/driven to sleep anymore (if he does fall asleep in the car then he wakes upon the car stopping)

I do medicate but its causing him an upset stomach as Ive been medicating for so long now so i only medicate with paracetamol before naptime and nurofen at bedtime and in the middle of the night with a dreammed.

BTW, im starting an 18 month old sleep regression support thread so if you are going through this too then hop on board!!!

Ok, so he was up at 6am which gives us  roughly an 11 hour night with the NW's involved. we are off to church this morning so we cant do a set naptime, he will fall asleep in the car around 9am (which im hoping will help carry him through till 12) then on the way home he should fall asleep too so will see how that goes. I looked in his mouth, that third canine still hasnt cut yet, but boy it looks painful and he keeps saying "Ow" and pointing to his teeth

[alohahellokitty]

Jo,

You are a great mother and let me tell you Caleb is going to come out of this. It will just take some patience... NO A LOT of patience. Remember this little guy is in pain. And he just needs your love and comfort. I always try to ramp up the loving and cuddles during A time when lo's are teething... they need it.

Your question about enforcing the nap when he just won't do it.... he eventually will! I promise you. It might take a couple days but he WILL start doing it. When he knows mommy says 'nap time' mommy means nap time he'll do it. Just have a few chats with him about it. I know this seems silly at his age (Anna would often act like she wasn't listening exc........) but they do understand and comprehend. Just tell him that every day Caleb gets to take his  nap so he can rest up for more play later in the day.. Maybe give the incentive of a favorite snack once we take a nap. Tell him everyone takes naps, his teddy bear needs to take a nap so he can have more energy to play later.... exc........... Just let him know its not negotiable and he's not coming out until he naps. It will be a few rough days but it will get back on track. Now I agree about making allowances during illness/teething.... But people who do not have a spirited child don't understand if you can't apop them there is NO WAY to get these lo's to sleep. Anna also will NOT be rocked down exc... Baby lo is not spirited and I am able to do a bit of GW with him if he needs it, there's no way EVER I can do that with Anna... just different personalities. If you have NO way to apop him and he's getting exhausted then it sounds to me like you have NO other choice but to help him with wi/wo to get him OVER the exhaustion. What I do with Anna is she ALWYAS takes a crib nap, she knows it and dives in her bed after lunch every day.. no matter how she's feeling. But if she's getting really tired and its not near bt, I do a car nap to catch her up a bit until we can make a decent bt. Now during the time I was having to teach her we have a nap/bt and its non-negotiable she did get very OT and we did a lot of early bt's as I couldn't apop as much with a newborn. Now with this canine, she ALWAYS dives right into her bed for nap/bt. And if I have to apop a extra cat nap in the car I do that. But let me tell you this is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than the 1st one (before I set clear boundaries for her). Its a act of love and comfort for them to have boundaries. Its loving and security. Wendy taught me that. (thanks Wendy)

I believe wi/wo is loving and comforting as well. Anna is like Caleb and VERY spirited. ANY form of GW makes her infuriated!! She goes bonkers and works herself into such a frenzy its scary!!! When I do it and DH is home we always go it together!! ALWAYS!! I need that support b/c its so tough. But it is loving. I NEVER EVER allow CIO. I believe caring for them and giving them everything they need while checking up on them is the BEST way that works for Anna. When she's in pain I give motrin and rub vanilla on her gums before bed (motrin 45 min's before so she's relaxed before sleep time). I give numerous warnings of sleep times ( During these rough periods I can't really rely on A times as they are ALL OVER THE PLACE during illness/teething). We CAN'T prevent our kids from ever crying, that's just impossible. But we can be there to reassure them when they need it. They will be sad sometimes and in pain, but we will be there to reassure them that its okay and they are loved exc.........

I enforce my 1 nap and bt rule b/c Anna needs this structure and routine. She NEEDS to know we do the same thing every day, she takes comfort in routine and structure. She's a totally different child now that she KNOWS she goes down for a nap and bt every day REGARDLESS of anything! It ALWAYS happens PERIOD and now she just dives in no matter how OT, or teething exc.........

I established this 'rule' at 18 months b/c we were going through the chaos you are currently in. Part of what makes them so anxious is they don't 'know' beyond a shadow of a doubt what's going to happen and they are experiencing SA from the teething..... its a rough time. We would talk about it a lot, play it out with a baby doll (you could use a teddy bear) and then I just held the fort until she knew the 'rule'. I was always loving and kind during the process of her understanding it. But that doesn't mean I ever caved.... EVER.

We played it out by her putting a diaper on her baby doll, giving her a sippy (pretending to be warm milk) and tucking her in a bed (a shoe box bed I made), telling her night night and covering with a blanket then leaving the doll to go upstairs to do the EXACT routine herself... This seemed to help her once she knew she was doing it next.

DH sits at the bottom of the stairs during wi/wo (or I do, whom ever isn't doing it) for encouragement. Then I walk in and tell her 'its night night time sweetie, mommy see you in the morning, love you' AND I WALK ALL THE WAY DOWN STAIRS as she screams in outrage. By walking down the stairs it helps me to not pop right back in and gives her some time to calm herself. If she's really going after 30 seconds I walk back up the stairs and shorten it to 'lay down its night night, love you'.... go back down stairs again... repeat the process but I always try to give her time to do it herself. After the 3rd visit I only say 'lay down, night night' Then after '5-6th time I only say 'night night'. I always have a VERY sweet and comforting disposition and a smile when I pop in to check on her and remind myself that she's okay and I NEED TO REMAIN CALM to show her that everything really IS okay and there's no reason to fight sleep.

That was 2 1/2 months ago and we are on our 3rd canine now and HAVEN'T had to do a single wi/wo in 2 1/2 months!!!!!!!!!! She now asks for nap time if she's tired and ready before I start her warnings. She also asks for her 'milk' which means she wants to have warm milk and go to bed. This is nice b/c she accepts rest times and can gauge when she needs it before I can sometimes (she just turned 2 and is able to communicate a lot more than 18 months). So she loves it, accepts it and needs it. Its not a bad time, it is good. We always tell her we are tired too and going to nap as well (used to before lo #2 came around). Same with bt.... If its neutral and a good thing... not a bad thing (no reason to feel sorry for them) they pick up on that and take it to heart.

What seemed to really help her is me being OVERLY comforting during A times and gentle but firm with nap/bt's. They need to know its okay to rest when they aren't well. and we are their guide to that. It is scary and hard for them during illness/teething but they really pick up on us. I am NOT emotional at ALL about sleep times, I'm loving and a bit monotone but no longer have the 'poor baby' feeling in my heart. It is simply nap time and time to rest. And that seems to help.

Can you give him some milk (and crackers if its day time) with the medicine to help ease it in his tummy?

Take care of yourself right now Jo! Its important that you don't get too run down,he needs a mommy who's on top of her game right now, b/c he's not.

Good thing DH is there with you for some sleep times. You can support eachother. I would get with DH and talk about how you want to handle it. Then communicate with Caleb before nap/bt about what's going to happen. Give him plenty of warnings (to prepare himself mentally for it,, no surprises.. spirited kids hate surprises!) then do what you and DH have decided to do and be consistent so he has the security of knowing what will always happen. It will take him a few times of you being consistent with whatever method you choose to really know what's coming and be able to take security in the consistency.

You are getting some great advice here from everyone.

you will pull through this. Take comfort in the fact you will have your sweet little Caleb back.... Just ask for strength to help you make it as long as it takes.

Take care!

[*Jo*]

Liana you are a Godsend, thank you so much for sharing all of that with me, it definatley gives me somthing to work with.


Just on a side note, i just did 15mins of Wi/Wo and he stopped crying and started to fall asleep..... then the neighbours starting building!!!!! he woke up!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!

[katie80]

Grrr. . . to the neighbors!  But, great work on the WIWO!!  It sounds like he's responding well; keep at it and he'll be back to independent sleep in no time! 

[*Jo*]

well hes still screaming..... we are  still doing wi/wo though

[alohahellokitty]

OMG!!!!!! JO I'm SOOOOOOOOOOO sorry!!! I HATE that. We have a neighbor who's ALWAYS pounding on his house! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

Can you turn on a white noise machine, and maybe a fan as well? Get a couple things humming in his room to wash that noise out.

That's really bad b/c this is not the time when he needs that happening. So sorry. grrrrrrrrr.

Glad it helped! Sorry I thought it was a rambling mess... very long! LOL!! I just remember the crying desperate mess I was when I was going through it. I REALLY felt like I was starting to have panic attacks over it all b/c baby LO was a newborn... just days old. And I was so exhausted and COMPLETELY beside myself. I remember it all too well. Even without the baby lo, it would have been HORRID! So I understand!

Katie is right he's going to get back to it in no time!!!

Take heart and ask for strength AND the ability to care for Caleb and love him even when he's a bit impossible. He doesn't mean to be.... He's doing the best he can at the moment, and you are going to help guide him and help him. Your teaching him with wi/wo.

It is very tough on us mommies who have spirited lo's that don't give us any wiggle room to do GW during these times. But your doing a great job caring for him!!!