nap2 is disappearing

[kingston's mama]

my lo just celebrated eight months and decided that he doesn't need much of a second nap anymore ... nap 1 works like a charm ... 3hrs and 30min of A and he's out before his little head hits the matress and he's down for 1.5 to 2 hrs like clockwork, but nap 2 is a different story ... i just can't seem to get the A time right ... he won't sleep longer than 30 minutes and it has become a struggle to get him to settle down - i'm not sure what's going on ... teething seems to be under control, no major milestones to speak of ... the only thing that has changed over the two months is we dropped the cn and as a result, morning wake ups and bt have gotten earlier ... 730pm and 530am -- he's a good sleeper, generally sttn/no overnight nursing, just a quick shh/pat if he does wake -- but nap 2 or lack thereof is starting to throw the routine off ... tried putting him down at 630pm tonight due to a 30min nap 2 and he wouldn't have it ... after two hours of back and forth, we took him to bed with us ... any suggestions ??



   

[empowered mama]

hi there,

Can you post your current routine so we can take a look at your A times?  Sounds like you might just need a routine tweak in order

[kingston's mama]

sounds good - the past two days ...

today
Wake: 550 (played quietly in crib until 615)
E: 630, bottle
E: 805, solid
A: play, bath
S: 915 (asleep immediately)
Wake: 1035
E: 1100, bottle
E: 1230, solid
A: walk
S: 245 (started putting him down at 145, then again at 215, then finally at 245)
Wake: 330 (crying hot mess)
E: 350, bf
E: 500, solid
A: play
E: 600, bottle
A: bath
S: 650

yesterday
Wake: 550 (played quietly in crib until 615)
E: 630, bottle
E: 805, solid
A: play, bath
S: 900 (a little fussy, asleep in 5min)
Wake: 1015
E: 1045, bottle
E: 100, solid
A: walk
S: 230
Wake: 300 (crying hot mess)
E: 350, bf
E: 500, solid
A: play
E: 545, bottle
A: bath
S: 715 (started putting him down at 645 - multiple wakeups until midnight)

i don't understand it ... he was textbook with both naps ... asleep before his head hit the mattress and down for 1.5 to 2hrs, now he resists the afternoon nap entirely, doesn't seem remotely tired, and i've played around with the A time ... he is just getting over a cold and his congestion seems to be worse by late afternoon into the evening, but i don't think that's it because he is sttn ... it's very frustrating - i'd appreciate your eyes/thoughts ...

thanks   

[Lola's Mum]

I was having NWs and having problems getting DD settle for the 2nd nap and BT. She would also go down for 1st nap without a peep. Someone suggested on this forum that l might need to extend A times. I extended 2nd and final A time by 40 mins and the NWs stopped and she went off to sleep fine. Your LO's As are already long so l wonder if u have to cut the first nap. I'll read with interest to see what the experts say.

[empowered mama]

hmm....I think there is an OT culprit here.  Let's look at your routine from yesterday ok?

How long did it take your LO to settle for nap #2?  Did she seem tired or did she play around in the crib for some time?

Also, what was her disposition after that 1h15min first nap?  Did she wake happy?  Crying?  Still tired seeming?

Once we know the answers to this, it will be a little easier to see what might be going on   Hang in there - I know it is frustrating! 

[kingston's mama]

alright ... it took him about 15min to settle for nap2 ... there were a couple of yawns while reading a story, then once i approached the crib, the crying started, put him down and he'd get up to a crawl, tried to stand before i'd put him back down, up again and i'd put him back down, shh/pat over and over until finally after few more yawns, his eyes started to close, thumb into mouth, and off he went ... only to wake up 30 min later ... it's unprecedented, i mean he was textbook with both naps ... never less than 1.5 hrs and always went down without as much as a peep ... i guess i was nailing the A time ... it's a whole new chapter now ... i noticed nap1 has gotten shorter, down to 1hr15, maybe 1hr20 if i'm lucky, and yes, he is yawning right after the nap ... still seems tired, but also refreshed - temperment is good, happy - smiling, but there are yawns ...

oh, please take a gander at my amended easy for today, now that the day is done and the little bugger is asleep ... not quite as planned to say the least

Wake: 330 (crying hot mess)
E: 350, bf
E: 500, solid
A: play
E: 600, bottle
A: bath
S: 730 (started at 700, no yawns, seemed punchy, minimal fussing turned into cry hot mess - spit up, had to change crib sheet, all worked up, nose full of snot, took him into our bed, laid beside him, he fell asleep in 2 min, head propped up on pillow ... getting ready to move him to  crib at 815)

help!

[empowered mama]

Okay, my thoughts are that I *think* the first nap might be a little UT.  Even though he is yawning, if he wakes talking/babbling and not crying/fussy I would guess UT and you might need to bump that first A just slightly.

Nap #2 is definitely sounding OT to me.  His A time is 4h15min which is very high for his age.  I would suggest scaling back quite a bit - maybe closer to 3.5 and see what kind of nap that gets you. 

If he continues to give you a short second nap, then you might want to consider bringing bedtime up a bit to prevent him from getting really OT.  I would recommend somewhere between 6:30 or 7 at the latest (assuming nap 2 is done by 3:30).  You might be able to prevent the bedtime meltdowns and NWs if you go for the early bedtime and he will wake more refreshed in the morning which might allow you to push his A times a bit.

We'll get there - big hugs! 

[kingston's mama]

yep, dynamic little bugger keeps changing on me i've been tweaking the A times over the past few weeks in response to nap2 shortening, which has pushed up BT along with morning wakeup ... i track each day on a spreadsheet (i'm such a nerd), but it does give me clarity, not that clarity is helping me at this point ... so get this, the second half of july his morning wake up time began shifting, from 630/7am to 515/530 (brutal), but his BT didn't move one for one, so his night sleep has decreased, 11 to 11.5 hrs down to 10 to 10.5 hrs -- his total nap time has decreased as well, from 3 to 4hrs down to 2 to 3hrs -- as they get older, do they require less sleep? or am i over-analyzing the hell out of this, as i do with most things?

thanks you so much btw 
 

[empowered mama]

I have spreadsheets too   so you are not the only nerd

Yes, that pattern of decreased nap time and EWs from decreased night sleep all points to OT.  Generally when LOs wake after 10-10.5 hrs sleep (especially if they still seem tired) then that points to OT.  He's just in a bit of a rut right now 

As he gets older, his sleep needs will gradually decrease to some extent.  But at his age, the average LO requires 11 (some take 12) hrs night sleep and about 3 hrs day sleep.  I really think once we get the 2nd nap back on track then you may see an increase in his night sleep a bit.

(((hugs)))

[kingston's mama]

great, thanks for the feedback ... we're off to a good start today, he's clocking 1.5+hrs for nap1 as i type , i brought A time to 230 minutes and am planning on 210 minutes prior to nap2, looking back, seems like he requires less A as the day progresses (i'll look for sleep cues) and then A before BT of around 180 minutes ... we'll see ... i love these little faces

cheers!   

[kingston's mama]

- a rut is was ... night sleep has increased (11hrs), nap2 is back, and morning wakeup is later ... beautiful, but now there's another issue developing ... i'm running out of A time before BT - here's the last two days of easy - any pointers ... he seems to need 3.5 hrs of A before BT, which pushes BT too late

august 10
Wake: 600
E: 630, bottle
E: 800, solid
A: play, bath
S: 935
Wake: 1045
E: 1115, bottle
E: 100, solid
A: played inside
S: 230
Wake: 400
E: 415, bf
E: 515, solid
A: play
E: 630, bottle
A: bath
S: 740 (took 15 minutes, didnt seem tired)

august 9
Wake: 640
E: 650, bottle
E: 830, solid
A: play, bath
S: 1025
Wake: 1225  (had to wake him)
E: 1240, bottle
E: 230, solid
A: walk
S: 400
Wake: 430 (put him down too soon, backfired)
E: 445, bf
E: 535, solid
A: play
E: 645, bottle
A: bath
S: 740 (took 15 minutes ... didnt seem tired)

august 8
Wake: 630
E: 700, bottle
E: 845, solid
A: play, bath
S: 1015
Wake: 1200
E: 1230, bottle
E: 200, solid
A: walk
S: 345
Wake: 500
E: 510, bf
E: 545, solid
A: play
E: 645, bottle
A: bath
S: 800 (took 20 minutes)

[empowered mama]

Glad to hear things are shaping up

Hmm...if your LO is in fact needing those higher A times, then it is possible that a nap cut might be in order to preserve the day (maybe not what you wanted to hear!)  It is a little early to start the 2-1 transition, but he may be needing a shorter nap in there to keep the day from getting too long. 

Here is a thread that might help explain things a bit:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163278.0

You could keep things as is and have a long day, or go ahead with a nap cut - say one nap of 1.5 and the other of 1h15min to start.  With the shorter nap you will adjust to a shorter A time which will shorten the day all around.  Make sense?

[kingston's mama]

well, i blew it - woke him up out of nap2 after an hour, cut A before BT to 2hr50, and wound up with an overtired mess ... he wouldn't settle, we took him to bed with us - put him back in his cot at 830, he woke up 30 min later - we took him back to bed with us, put him back in his cot at 1am - he stirred at 535am, but thankfully resettled on his own ... i'm hoping he stays asleep until 645 so i have a shot at this again - i read in the 2-1 transition threads about cutting A to ~2hrs if you wake them out of a nap, but it seemed like too little time ... ugh! and we were having such an incredible run    here's what yesterday looked like ... what would you have done differently? and thanks

Wake: 700
E: 730, bottle
E: 915, solid
A: play, bath
S:1025 (fell asleep on changing table)
Wake: 1155
E: 1215, bottle
E: 200, solid
A: walk
S: 340
Wake: 440 (woke him to avoid long day)
E: 445, bf
E: 515, solid
A: play
E: 630, bottle
A: bath
S: 730 (would not settle - seemed ot)

[empowered mama]

Sorry hun - I know it's hard when things are going good and they throw you for a loop

Hmm...what if you maintain this routine and try to have him in bed by 7:00?  If it still isn't working, we'll try a few other options

[kingston's mama]

well, we've had three nights in a row of BT problems ... something tells me it's OT combined with gas/indigestion ... the napping is back on track, 225 minutes seems to be the magic A time for now, but i'm stumped on A before BT ... there are not enough hours in the day ... he's been waking up anywhere from 1 to 2.5hrs after BT and is inconsolable ... i feel like i'm trying to fit too much feeding into a short amount of time by the end of day - here's the last three days of easy ... what do you think?

Aug 12
Wake: 700 (happy, played in crib til 715)
E: 730, bottle
E: 915, solid
A: play, bath
S:1025 (started to fuss while reading/put him down 20min earlier than intended)
Wake: 1155 (still seemed tired)
E: 1215, bottle
E: 200, solid
A: walk
S: 340
Wake: 440 (woke him)
E: 445, bf
E: 515, solid
A: play
E: 630, bottle
A: bath
S: 730 (hard to settle, woke multiple times, seemed very OT, took to bed with us)

Aug 13
Wake: 700 (happy, but needy all morning/not much independent play)
E: 705, bottle
E: 845, solid
A: play, bath
S: 1030
Wake: 1200 (happy)
E: 1205, bf
E: 130, solid
A: walk (started to fall asleep on walk, rushed home)
E: 300, bf (tried moving this feed to before nap2)
S: 320 (fell asleep while bf)
Wake: 335 (woke up hot mess after 25min - shh/pat 30min, cried whole time)
E: 430, solid
A: play
E: 600, bottle
A: bath
S: 700 (went right down, but woke at 930 inconsolable)

Aug 14
Wake: 700 (happy)
E: 730, bottle
E: 900, solid
A: play, bath
S: 1035
Wake: 1235 (had to wake him)
E: 1245, bf
E: 200, solid
A: company
S: 420
Wake: 545 (had to wake him)
E: 550, bf
E: 615, solid
A: play
E: 715, bottle
A: bath
S: 815 (started at 8, took 15 to settle, no crying just uncomfortable, woke at 900 - big burp, fell asleep in our bed, moved to cot at midnight, sttn, woke at 625am, 30min earlier than usual)