3 hr NW sessions for 10.5 mth DS - this cant be for real! please help!

[babybarr]

I just wanted to offer some ((hugs)) and if I can help as we go I'll pitch in.  My DS also has very long NWs so I may have some thoughts!

I like Wendy's routine though.  My DS was always a bad napper until at about 8mths we gave him a fairly structured routine.  I really think (if you can and believe me I know how hard it is) you need to avoid the apop at night otherwise you'll end up in more of a pickle.

[KathG]

Hi all

There is quite a lot to answer to for each of your replies or give comments on, so I can get to the bottom of this with your help.  The day ran away with me.   Thank you for your useful input!!!!

With such long NW, I suggest UT for some of his naps which then causes OT for the next nap and so on.

Do you mean UT for his BT or UT for a day nap?  If its the latter, do you mean UT for a day nap leads to OT for the 2nd day nap?  I'm not quite understanding that... sorry!

it sounds OT but it could have started with an UT/OT loop

IS there anywhere on this forum that I can read more about how the OT/UT loop comes about? 

Tracy gives us tools and tips to teach independent sleep and to keep LO on a routine

I used to think I knew what a routine was for babies, but now I don't (after this new mudle with DS).  The routine is exactly what i am desparately seeking to not only make his life more predictable and settled for him, but for our family unit.   I thought all babies could be on a routine if their mother's worked on it? But you say sometimes not, and you just have to take your LO's cues?
BUT what is "routine"?  Is it about the baby being clockworked into certain times of the day for naps, BT and A time or is it not so much about the actual times that it happens but more about his body working around specific A, nap and sleep times, as you have suggested above as a path for me to try and follow?   My LO has never been on a clockwork schedule but more on the type of structure you suggest above. So it's never been that his first nap is always at 9:15 am but rather it's depended on his awake time that has varied within 30 mins each day, and his mood that day, which has led to his 1st nap varying 30 - 45 min around the 9am mark. That was a good enough routine for me.  I followed suggested A times versus specific clock times. 

The key is that when we get a short nap, we need to reduce the next A time.  So after that nap in the PM, he should have had an earlier bedtime, especially with an EW.  4 hr 10 might have been too much.  Definitely not enough sleep for him in the 24 hours.

I've been putting him down at 18h00 in past few days (an hour earlier than used to be) JUST because of pm naps being so short and ending before 14h00. are you suggesting I could put him down even before 18h0.  Would he not start waking even earlier in the am?

Thanks Clazzat for the suggested routine tweaking times etc.   I will post in a sep paragraph what I did today with it in mind.

Grants, thanks so much for your constant input.  It does seem we are experiencing such similar stuff with our same-aged LOs.  Your posting of last few days rings bells with me so much. Our LO's cycle so varied yet so much effort from us to get consistency, as promised is possible by everyone's recommendations on this forum .

Sometimes it is worth taking a step back and thinking about how you are reacting and what we (moms) are doing that is not working.

This is exactly what concerns me - my husband keeps telling me that I must not beat myself up about it all right now and that I cant control what is happening with LO to such an extent... BUT I SAY TO HIM, "but I'm the sole determinant of when he gets into that cot to sleep; how long he can play for etc... he can't determine that himself at this age (other than give cues with yawns etc) ... so IT IS UP TO ME and it MAY BE MY FAULT that all this is happening. so I am constantly re-assessing what I am doing that is not working.

my replies to posts following this last one... continued in next para :-)

[KathG]

sorry, I meant: thanks WENDY (not Clazzat) for your suggested routine tweaking times etc.... my brain is getting fried :-)

[KathG]

Hi Grants and Wendy

in answer to your para....:

This is a hard one to answer Kath! My Ds has never....

For the recent  long NWs, I've given DS at least 30 mins to be in his cot on his own and re-settle but he doesnt. he doesnt call for me or cry, he just talks, stands, sits etc. Gets himself more awake basically.

Does your LO know how to sleep independently

Yes, for many months now I could put him down awake in his cot without tea bottle, just dummy and he would fiddle with his rabbit or blanket and most times nod off. only recently, with his crawling dev, that he's been up to rolling over and trying to sit in cot instead of going to sleep.

I didnt know that at this age, shh-pat is not appropriate.  Not that I do the real ssh-pat Tracy describes... I have my own "stroking-holding chest with hand" version, but if we don't do that, how do we get him to sleep if he's restless and rejecting sleep, trying to roll over etc?

I think the phantom cry for him is either teething (he's drooling a lot right now) or OT jerks.  I'm not sure!
You are right, he's not having night terrors as what you describe about them is not what he is having.

Wendy...

Which is why I think your LO is UT.  He's up to play and not too concerned with getting back to sleep.  An OT kid normally kicks up a real fuss and a kid in pain, well they will settle with comfort but not for long.

I am surprised if he's UT as, as I said, he's not getting near 13 hours sleep a day in total, and always wakes up from his 30 min nap very grumpy.  But yes, he doesnt cry when he wakes for the long NWS.  Its as if he's on some stimulant drug - a little robot determined to stay upright and do something!  I thought it was the stress hormone Cortisol that is too high in his body due to being OT and Cortisol kicking in.  I read that this happens from being OT on another website or on this one... I forget now.

And to end off on all the posts thus far ...
Today his day was like they used to be:
After a good 1hr30 morning nap til 11:25 ( I couldnt bring myself to wake him up after an hour ... after reading Grant's non-success with this and becase I know my DS's 2nd nap is always so hard to push thorugh the 30 min), his afternoon nap at 15h00 (after a 3hr30 A time which is reasonable?) lasted only 30 mins again and I wasnt around to HTTJ.
But I didnt want him to sleep much past 15h30 as he needs a good A time before bed time as far as I can work out from this forum.  
I started his sleep bottle and wind-down at 18h30 tonight, it normally recently takes 5 - 10 mins for him to pass out after the bottle (due to his bad sleep cycle at moment), but tonight it took 30 mins with some APOP rocking to get him sleepy.  might be linked to his shorter A time this afternoon being 3hr30?
 
I don't want to speak too soon, but all I can say with regards to today is: due to his late waking at 6:30 am after a NW of 1.5 hrs awake last night, all his day naps were later than the past week of super early napping which meant his last A time for the day was not too long (like the others that have been 4+ hrs).  So, 1) he could go to bed at 18:30 instead of 18:00 (although he battled to sleep til 19h00) and 2) his last A time was 3h30.  Feels like the good old days.

Now, with him being less scratchy and tired before bed tonight, it will be very intersting to see what happens with his night regards his hourly sleep yelps, any proper NWs that involve my action and the EWs. I know things don't come right overnight so am not holding my breath right now :-)

My plan is to wake up at 5am tomorrow morning to try my first Wake to Sleep effort to try and break his recent habit of waking at 5:15 no matter what time he goes to bed. if I can use WTS for this, as seen a success by others on the forum, then hopefully we're on our way back to some normality. not sure!!!

phew, wish me luck.  my brain is fried from all this... I hope you have been able to follow this and make some sense of it all.  

[babybarr]

Good luck tonight.  If he is awake but doesn't need you I'd leave him to it.  I know it's hard but you don;t want him becoming dependant on you at 1am!

[Grants]

Hi Kath!

If you have your own shh-pat and if it works for you it is fine but by the sound of it might become a prop if you keep on doing it in the middle of the night and when putting him down. If you don’t allow your LO to self soothe or to settle by himself he will become dependent on your shh-pat etc to go to sleep or go back to sleep. I agree with babybarr here! I think if you leave him he will eventually go back to sleep. Going into his room in the middle of the night might be stimulating him even more than if you just left him to it! As you said it yourself since he started crawling he started trying to sit up in the cot etc….this is developmental changes and it is normal at his age. It is one of thoses things and it will pass. Tracy says in one of her books that between 8 and 12 months great variations in routine will happen and we need to just try and go with the flow instead of panicking. She says:"Trying to reach for a quick fix can create greater problems later on."

As for the bit about to take a step back: There is nothing nobody can say to you that can change your attitude towards the whole thing. You need to realize it yourself that you can’t control everything that is going on with your LO and once you have reached that conclusion you will stop beating yourself up for it! It is not worth it Kath! Enjoy your little boy as this phase will pass and you will miss it ater on! I know it is hard to do this as you are in the middle of the problem. But with everybody’s help here you can do it! Have you already started the new tweak suggested by Wendy? How is it going?! At this age as I wrote on my long reply,there is no way of controlling everything. I used to be able to have a proper routine with my LO when he was younger but soon after he started pulling up, crawling and have a bit of his own will it is impossible to keep them on the same kind of routine. These babies change very quickly and it can be very hard to keep up with every change! This is just a phase and it will pass soon enough!

[Tweakster]

Do you mean UT for his BT or UT for a day nap?  If its the latter, do you mean UT for a day nap leads to OT for the 2nd day nap?  I'm not quite understanding that... sorry!
IS there anywhere on this forum that I can read more about how the OT/UT loop comes about?

 

Basically, it's when LO is UT for the first nap usually, they go down UT, have a short nap, and then they are OT for the next nap, and finally OT by bedtime.  They might have a rough night because of accumulated OT, and then go down earlier again for their first nap, again UT and so forth.  It perpetuates itself.

I used to think I knew what a routine was for babies, but now I don't (after this new mudle with DS).  The routine is exactly what i am desparately seeking to not only make his life more predictable and settled for him, but for our family unit.   I thought all babies could be on a routine if their mother's worked on it? But you say sometimes not, and you just have to take your LO's cues?
BUT what is "routine"?  Is it about the baby being clockworked into certain times of the day for naps, BT and A time or is it not so much about the actual times that it happens but more about his body working around specific A, nap and sleep times, as you have suggested above as a path for me to try and follow?   My LO has never been on a clockwork schedule but more on the type of structure you suggest above. So it's never been that his first nap is always at 9:15 am but rather it's depended on his awake time that has varied within 30 mins each day, and his mood that day, which has led to his 1st nap varying 30 - 45 min around the 9am mark. That was a good enough routine for me.  I followed suggested A times versus specific clock times. 

Ok well Tracy wanted a predictable series of events, which she calls EASY.  So meaning your day has flow and LO knows what is coming next, and it is done in a particular order to promote good eating and sleeping habits and so that you can get a much needed break.  It naturally evolves into a routine, based off your wake time. It's not about just the LO cues or just the clock times or even just the average A times, it's about the entire package and finding what works best for your LO.  If you find that LO responds better to clock times, then you need to consider those.  If you find that you can read cues really well, then you just need to follow those.  If you find, like me, that you can't work either out, then you need somewhere to start, a baseline based on what you know to be true about your LO and go from there.  For me it was set naps.  It helped with both the dropping the CN and the 2-1 transition.

When LO gets to a certain age, they aren't just following a 4 hr EASY anymore.  They are finding their groove and developing at different paces so the average A times vary.  3-4 hours is a huge variation.  Your LO could be more or less, and they could be more or less at certain times of day.  Some LO need a long morning A, others don't.  It becomes very individualized in the 2-1.

What we do know about this age group is that they need like 1.5 naps.  1 is too little, 2 can be too much, so we need to start working out how and where to drop some sleep and still keep our days and nights intact. 

I've been putting him down at 18h00 in past few days (an hour earlier than used to be) JUST because of pm naps being so short and ending before 14h00. are you suggesting I could put him down even before 18h0.  Would he not start waking even earlier in the am?

Yes i am suggesting that sometimes you can put them down earlier to get a longer night.  But yes, there is always the danger that they may wake earlier.  But you want to keep as much OT at bay as possible as LO transitions to less day sleep. 

I think you are doing so well, you are being too hard on yourself :-)  I know how that feels though. And it's so easy to get caught up in the numbers and the tweaks, we forget to enjoy them at this age, every day with them is a gift and before you know it they are walking, talking and have minds of their own.  Hang in there!

[KathG]

Hi all
Thanks Wendy for your most recent post. Very encouraging stuff to absorb. My biggest problem today is that I am now way overtired myself as DS's night was very restless last night, I was up a lot as well as from 4:15am and with no sleep in the day, the last week is now wearing down on my phsyical and emotional state.  I agree, I don't want to lose sight of enjoying him whilst he is so cute but I cant help feel depressed and energy-less from exhaustion and with no time for me at all at the moment, almost resentful of him at times. Like I just want to go away and have 2 solid days to myslef to catch up on sleep, muy life, my planning for the next baby in November, some personal admin... one's life feels out of control in situations like this.

I compiled my reply to Grants and BabyBarr before I saw yours now... so will continue with that...
Here’s a quick run down of LO’s night.  Despite having had back to normal A times, an ok amount of sleep (2 hrs) and what seemed his old normal days, his night was very restless with the phantom yelps every hour or so in his sleep. At 11am he sounded like he was coming out of sleep properly into wakefulness so I went into to apply HTTJ.  His little body was jolting and jerking a lot for 15 mins.
He had his usual yelp at 4am which normally passes and we don’t enter room, but this time, it turned into wakefulness.  I left him for 30 mins then he got louder and more chatty so I decided I needed to put him back to sleep as this is considered a NW (as per pp) and went into hold him in cot. He wriggled under my hold for 20 mins, eyes closed. I got  tired of the HTTJ position so went back to my room thinking he would settle on own. He started talking loudly. I asked DH to see what he could do. DH took some time with hand on LO’s chest and he went back to sleep for an hour til 6:30am. 

So back to your advice – do I really leave him each time he wakes up?  Its proven that every time I’ve left him to do his own thing, he’s woken himself up more by talking and sitting than going back to sleep. Sometimes he does get bored and start calling for us. So, I would only land up with a baby with 3/4s of a night’s sleep and then a pear-shaped day of naps resulting from that.  I am confused, as I thought we were here to train them into better sleeping habits, not to leave them to their own devices? 

And about the control thing, I guess I read everywhere that people work on these problems and fix them.  Its amazing how many success stories are posted from mothers applying methods and techniques to get their babies out of bad habits and back to the good ones. So, I am therefore thinking, surely that is the reason for BW and the forum – to fix problems?  Not to leave so that they babies get into bad habits that are irreversible?  Sorry to sound so confused, but now I really am  ;-(

[babybarr]

Sorry to confuse you.  I would never advocate leaving a child who is unhappy or needing something, but just sometimes they need to learn to self settle - without a parent there.  I know where you are coming from with wanting to help your baby sleep and wanting to do anything you can possible to get them a good night's sleep - just look through some of my previous threads and you'll see my journey.

I guess what I was worried about was you getting into the habit or rocking your LO back to sleep.  HTTJ is a little different as you are not actively doing AP.  I think probably with a routine tweak or 2 you'll get there.  Only you know your LO best and you do what you feel is right. 

Something that we found helped us at around 8/9mths was having a more structured routine, so even if DS woke a bit early or was up loads in the night we pretty much stuck with similar nap times and bedtimes.  It kinda helped regulate him a bit.

What routine did you follow today and are you going by "A" times?

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression
Laura x

[Tweakster]

I agree, I don't want to lose sight of enjoying him whilst he is so cute but I cant help feel depressed and energy-less from exhaustion and with no time for me at all at the moment, almost resentful of him at times. Like I just want to go away and have 2 solid days to myslef to catch up on sleep, muy life, my planning for the next baby in November, some personal admin... one's life feels out of control in situations like this.

It's normal to feel this way and especially with a kid who doesn't sleep at all or sleep well.  I am sure Laura and I have both felt like this many many times :-) 

Finn didn't nap really until 7.5 mths, not naps I could count on.  And certainly he was always up before 5:30 a.m.  5:30 was a gift most days, if it happened.  We really struggled with EASY as he had reflux and didn't eat as he was supposed to either.  I kept thinking maybe Tracy's methods just wouldn't work for us.  But in the end, I really had nothing else.  I had no plan, no one to really give us advice on how to get our kid to sleep - most just said 'let him cry' and it was not something DH or I felt comfortable with.  So we perservered and never looked back.  Your LO is older than Finn when we started our sleep training so it might be harder to break some habits, like going in too soon and him not learning to self-settle.  It's not to say don't tend to him, just to try to have a more defined strategy or a plan for NW.  Him self-settling is not the bad habit.  If it means he wakes and takes some time to go back to sleep, that's ok, as long as he isn't needing assistance then it's really the best way for him to learn.  They learn by doing and repetition and cause and effect. 

is there anyone who can give you a break at all?  So you can get some sleep and clear your own head a bit?  Sometimes it helps to step back before you step forward IYSWIM.

[Grants]

Hi there gilrs!

Kath , I hope you had a better night last night . I don’t know what else to say to you ?!?! This very long NWs sounds like a torture to me! The leaving him to settle by himself during the night it is a hard one as it is so hard to judge what is the best time to go into your LO's bedroom and what time is best to leave him to self soothe?!?! With such long NWs It must be really hard to judge!? Especially when your LO is having these phantom yelps!?! My LO did this last night?!?! What did you say it was supposed to mean? Like Wendy I also thought that perhaps you could ask your hubby to do a few nights for you to have a break?!?!

I’m the one who need a bit of advice today! So Kath, Wendy and babybarr I’m open to any suggestions and insights.

My LO is finding it difficult to wake up from his short am nap. As I posted earlier I kept on leaving him to take the longer nap in the morning instead of the afternoon as he didn’t want to wake up! I know it is not a problem to have the long nap in the morning but the problem I find with my DS is that he wants to nap at around 10am, he wakes up at . But then he wants to have a late afternoon cat nap at around 16:00. This is too late as it mess up with his BT. My LO can do a 4 hours A time or a bit more even when he only have 30/45 min cat nap. I have spoken to other moms in this forum and lots of them don’t find a problem having such a late nap as by BT the day have caught up with their Los and they still go to bed at their usual time. My conundrum is if I leave him to have a long am nap he only wants to have pm nap at around 16:00/16:30 and now I even have to do AP( putting him in the pushchair for the short pm nap as he is resisting the cat nap) I haven’t done AP since he was 4.5 months when I implemented 4 hours EASY, taught him how to sleep independently( he only knew how to fall asleep if I rocked him) and taught him how to sleep longer the 30 mins ( he only would take cat naps and never would sleep longer than 30 mins) . I don’t like the idea that now he only wants to sleep on the pushchair for his short nap and also don’t like the fact that I’m caught on this cycle-if I don’t put him in the pushchair he will carry on playing until he is OT but when he does take his cat nap it is already too late and messes up with his BT. Some days he will skip his pm cat nap altogether and on those days we do a early BT (17:00/17:30) but I also don’t want to hold him every day until 17:00 , for a earlier BT without having a cat nap as if I do this every day he might end up getting OT?!?!?   Last night he took his cat nap too late again and I put him to bed at 19:20 after only 3 hours A time. He woke up the whole night long (at least 12 times and wouldn’t go back to sleep, he was moaning, complaining and crying and also had those yelps like Kath’s LO. I first thought he was UT because I put him to bed only after 3 hours A time but then I realized that he wasn’t happy and didn’t want to play. He was moaning and crying. Like saying:” I really want to go back to sleep but I can’t! “He also would start self soothing but then the self soothing would become a cry?!?! So I gave him some pain med at 2am thinking that it could be teething. But the meds didn’t work.
Today he went down for his am nap a bit earlier than normal (8:50 am ) He woke up at 5:30am as usual. I think because he was tired from the terrible night. So I thought It wouldn’t be too bad  to have his long am nap as he went down earlier than normal. But then he woke up after 40 mins?!?!  I don’t think he will have his pm nap too late as he woke up only 9:30 today. But overall I don’t get it!!! I accept the fact that at this age it is hard to keep a proper routine, therefore I’m following his cues all the time. But I think the minimum I can do is to make sure he has his naps and doesn’t get OT!?!?!


So my questions are:
Could this be separation anxiety?
How do I solve this conundrum? Can I skip his afternoon cat nap and do an early BT everyday. Would this make him OT?

Sorry Kath for invading your thread. If you guys think I should post my questions on “General sleeping problems forum” just let me know. I just thought it would be interesting to exchange some experience here as you guys already know a bit about my DS.  And Kath’s DS is the same  age as mine.

Thank you guys!
xx

[KathG]

Hi all,
Thanks for replies.   
Its 3pm now, DH has taken DS out so I can try get a nap as last night was another NW at 8:30 - 10pm (after a 18h15 BT), most bizarre time to NW.  Then a restless night but without proper wakes thank goodness, an EW at 5 but he self-soothed back to sleep til 6am. 10hr15 night sleep in total. Gone are the 11 hour sleeps to make up for bad day naps!
This morning, I tried to do a perfect appropriate A time for first nap (3hr A time) and I was there for HTTJ BUT he woke up very definitely at 30 mins and I am convinced my HTTJ was the problem this time as sometimes I think he senses my presence in his stirring and that makes him wake up. other times my HTTJ works like a bomb. 
Its horrible to not have anything to rely on!

So, am nap was 9 - 9:30am. 
A time was 2h45 til 12:15.
Pm nap: 12:15 - 13:45 = 1.5 hr  (I didnt bother doing HTTJ as am too scared to do it or not do it - I just threw caution to the wind and he slept solidly).  I thought he would do a 2 hour nap at least with all his lack of sleep recently but only did 1.5 hours.
It seems his day naps are now consistntly totaling 2 hours only, and his night sleeps 10.5hrs ... so we're just making the 12 hour total sleep mark these days.

We have a long afternoon A time now - if he is asleep by 18h00, it will still be over 4 hours!  but what can I do! 

I admit, I have had it easy and lucky til now - DS slept through from 3 months til 8.5 months; always til 6am; never had reflux for us to deal with etc.  He was a brilliant night sleeper and more difficult day napper for some periods. So, perhaps I have to accept that now is my time of challenge and its due after a fairly easy time til now!
If I must accept it in that light, I will work on my mindset so I can get thorugh this time in a better way, BUT I just don't want what is happening now to become habitual IF I can help it. If others on this forum have managed through effort and work to get their LOs back to decent wake times and decent day naps, then I believe I should be able to.  That is half my problem -I think "IF THEY CAN, WHY CANT I?". 

I will most definitely reply to your post Grants ... sorry to end off now... I must just take this opportunity for some sleep.  My DH is now geting agitated with the time I spend on this forum as he wonders if it helps us at all.He insists I get sleep, which is true too, so I'll be back a little later.

thanks to you all.  What would I do without the internet, this forum... and your ears and eyes and minds.
xxxx

[KathG]

Hi Grants
We really do seem to have the same issues with our LOs.  My LO won't have an afternoon catnap at around 4 if he had a short early lunchtime nap so it also messes with his BT and makes him OT by bedtime.

Could this be separation anxiety?
How do I solve this conundrum? Can I skip his afternoon cat nap and do an early BT everyday. Would this make him OT?

I never think of SA as the problem for my LO... not sure why.  But it could be... I would rather leave that guesswork to the moderators and experienced ones in this forum.
But just to say that my LO skips the catnap as I know he won't even take it in the car now which used to easily make him drowsy, so it means he goes down an hour earlier than he used to (18:00 instead of 19:00) which then I think results in earlier wakings in the morning which is a real issue for us.  waking at 5am is much harder than his old 6am wake up.
So, I have no answer/solution for you here but just saying that I am prone to the same afternoon problem, I don't have much option other than earlier BT now and possibly an OT baby rather often... and perhaps all we can do is wait this time out until their bodies fit into the next stage which is the "less sleep" stage where this long afternoon won't make them OT and their sleep will settle again?  I'm not sure.

Especially when your LO is having these phantom yelps!?!

Sorry, I am mixing terminology up here. My own wording I use for his short cries is "yelps" as it literally is just a once off shout/cry, as if its a yelp from pain or a fright from a dream... and thats it... he goes quiet and carries on sleeping.
The "phantom cry" terminology is something I either got off this website/forum in a different topic, or off another parenting website. But I might've got the wording wrong as I've just googled the word "baby's phantom cries" and what comes up is not what I understood or read in my flurry of reading on various websites the other day. if I come across it again, I'll let you know.

Good night for now. I have more to ask, say but bedtime calls.

x

[Grants]

Thank you for the reply Kath!

I meant SA just during the 12 NWs in one night not for the late naps... Sorry my mistake as I haven't  expressed myself properly!

By you description the "Yelps" is different from what my LO had last night. He was crying like he lost somebody a really upset cry(more emotional cry) That's why I thought could be SA?!?! 
Anyway....I will wait to see what Wendy and babybarr have to say.

I hope you have good night!!

[Grants]

I forgot to mention kath that my ds also used to wake up at 6am but now wake up at 5:30 sometimes 5 :-(  like u i also long for a 6am wake up! i dont think there is much i can do about it as my ds has a full night's of sleep so i dont think i can really force him to sleep any longer.plus i dont want to do bt later as by 7pm im exhausted! It is amazing how our los r so similar! It must be the south african blood as  my dh is also a south african! lol