DF seems to cause more NW due to wind? any ideas? 4mo

[gemma2313]

Hi,

DF worked great with my ds1. We kept them until he was about 7 months. after that he slept well (1xnw) most nights. He STTN now at least 11hrs since he was 12mo.

ds2 seems to have major gut issues (reflux and sensitive to my bf letdown). I have tried not giving him a DF @ 10 but he always wakes by 11 hungry. When I do DF he seems to wake somewhere between 12 and 3 hungry again. I wonder if this is because he is so uncomfortable after the DF it distrupts his sleep and causes him to NW.

Yesterday our routine was almost a "perfect" 3.5hr day its usually pretty good atm give or take a nap. Sometimes its a bit 3.5hrs/4hrs/3.5hrs etc
E6.30
A
S8.30 - 10 (1.5hrs)
E 10
A
S 12 - 1.30 (1.5hrs)
E   1.30
A
S 3.30 - 5 (1.5hrs)
A bath
E 6.30
S 7

I DF @ 10.15
He woke @ 12.30; 3.45;5.45.
 Not only that but he took a long time to resettle after the DF. He didnt actually wake but I needed to wind him (as normal) and after several minutes with no luck  (as normal!) I put him back down and then he twists and turns and grunts until he either spews, farts or burps.. then he sleeps. I think this is actually distrupting his night and I'm not sure what to do about it. His other feeds in the night seem to be fine just more and more frequent as the night progresses.

He has actually STTN about 10 times since born (7pm - 6am with 10pm df), twice since we moved to 3.5/4hr routine (about 2 weeks ago) so I know he can. I just don't understand why we are getting the NW. I feed him during the night and he usually goes to sleep during the feed... I know its bad - do you think its a habit? He doesnt wake at the same time each night. He sleeps independantly during the day. No fuss, quick cuddle, put him down at the right time, little mantra cry sometimes but most times he's off like a light. No dummy or props. He has whitenoise druing naps and have just started using it all night (thoguht maybe that was a problem but he seems to sleep the same with or without it).

I haven't tried to settle him in the night without a feed yet. mostly because I don't want him to make too much noise and wake my 22mo toddler! given his sensitive guts do you think I should just bite the bullet and not feed him ?? or should I try some other method?
I'm very tired. I don't get to nap during the day because of my toddler and my DH and I operate our own business and I am back at work most days (whether I like it or not) workign from home and in spare time (ha! whats that!) so I would love to try and get more of those STTN nights if I can!!!

I'm thinking of starting him on solids in a few weeks cause that was really what helped my ds1 get through the night... I'm hoping it will also help ds2 guts but at the same time it might also make it worse!! Any thoughts would be great!

[gemma2313]

geess.... I'd never thought of that!!

but in saying that... yesterday was a good day.. today was like this...

E 6
A
S 8 -9.30 (1.5hrs)
E 9.30
A
S 11.25 - just before 12 (30mins) would not resettle...
A very low key for about 15mins then tried S again
S 1 - 1.30 (30mins)
E 1.30
A
S 3.15 - 5 (1.5hrs)
E 5
A bath
E 6.30
S 7.10

He usually has at least 2 good naps. If we get a 2hr nap then then next is usually a catnap so I don't think he's getting too much really. It sucks for me when the middle day nap is bad as that is the only time my toddler is asleep and therefore the only time i get to have any Y time!!! although I have to admit I love the late nap .. I know its gonna be the first to go though.. but it lets me get so many things "ready'.. dinner for ds1 / dinner ready for us / light the fire / dishes etc...

I'm actually thinking about expressing my bm for that df and seeing if he takes it better from a bottle. I just can't seem to shake the feeling that the Df disrupts him, by either waking him up too much or leaving him windy which then wakes him up...
do you think a bottle will make any difference to his wind?

I tried giving him a topup feed at 8.30 to see if hunger was the issue... but when I do that he doesnt take the DF properly

[gemma2313]

I haven't tried it yet, I have a cold and have been attempting work the last two days!! grr!! funny enough though, last night I did the bf DF at 10.15, he then woke at 1.30 and feed well... but then poo'd so I had to turn the lights on and the whole works... when we'd finished he didnt want any more feed so I just ended up putting him back to bed awake. He burped and I ended up calmly sshhpatting him for probably 20mins... and then he didnt wake again!! My toddler woke us at 6.45! We haven't slept through the 3/4 am hour for weeks!! I did hear him stirr but not enough for me to register ... so I really think that me feeding him when he NWs is just compounding whatever gut issues he might have AND I'm sure that the DF does distrupt him ... basically because I have to burp him afterwards and that usually wakes him either that or if he doesnt burp his tummy hurts.

I wonder if its worth considering infacol/gripe water (thats suppose to help them burp isnt it?) ... he's 4 months old seem a bit old for it.. what do you think? If that fails I'll go the expressed DF. I'm just not sure how to "structure" it into our routine... I single side feed so when is the best time to regularly express a feed? Do I still express at night before I Df him? or am I best to express the "other" boob first thing in the morning for that night and my boobs have to adjust to not emptying at 10pm?

[*Jo*]

Hi Gemma, I was going to suggest gripe water or infacol, we used that till about 6 mnths old, we had this issue with Caleb, reflux and wind at the DF, sometimes its unavoidable but most of the time there can be something you can do about it. One thing we did was trial different kinds of bottles and the only one that didnt give him wind was the Dr Browns bottles (they just started putting them in Chemist Warehouse or you can buy them at a Toys R Us or order them online)

They were fantastic and to be honest Im going to buy them for all my future children regardless of wind issues or not because they work so darn well.

For the DF we would still sit Caleb up after wards for a few minutes just in case there was a bit of wind and most times there wasnt but I still did it every time, it didnt seem to affect his sleep

[gemma2313]

I usually sit him up after all his feeds including DF and NW, sometimes he burps sometimes he doesn't. Last night I tried infacol. He had a little burp after his Df (10.15) and seemed to sleep easier (less tossing about) but he still woke at 1.55 and again at 5. At 5 he'd had another night time poo... His poos seem really sticky and runny and either fluro yellow or green... I'm wondering if its teething now... either that or there's some sort of AP going on that he is waking for, even though I think he's a pretty good independant sleepr (if anything maybe hooked on ssshhh and patting!). Some nights he's waking every 2-3 hrs... even though he has a good routine most days and feeds every 3.5/4hrs...

[*Jo*]

when he wakes in the night when do you feed him? we had no feeds in teh night but at around 3.5 months old he jsut started wanting a feed at anytime around 3-5am and we just went with it to be honest, it dropped off around 5.5 months old, didnt affect his ability to STTN afterwards either.

[gemma2313]

I've been bad and I feed him when he has NW. Initially because he spewed so much I actually believe he was hungry but I think now its almost a night time AP. He is an independant sleeper during the day but I think at night now he wakes up expecting a feed. I'm just going to have to be brave and once I get over this cold,... not feed him at that first NW I think. Maybe offer him water only. I never fed ds1 through the night so I relaly don't know why i have with ds2!!

[*Jo*]

you feed him every time? If its been 4 hours or more I would feed but otherwise I would try patting back to sleep

[gemma2313]

Rarely does he make it to 4hrs during the night... in saying that last night he woke before his DF (9.15), I tried to resettle but he wasnt having it so I fed him DF. He then went til 2.15 before his first NW. I fed him. Then at 5.20 when he woke again I tried to resettle but again with no luck.. he was just getting more and more worked up so I fed again.

Last night was his first night with no reflux medication (course has finished) ... and there was no grunting so hopefully it stays like that. Today he has napped well. He is still having strange poos though...

[*Jo*]

usually a NW before midnight is OT and so I think you might need to cut back his A time a bit. how close to 4 months is he?

what reflux meds is he on? do you swaddle, use white noise etc? sorry if you ahve already answered this

[gemma2313]

Thats really interesting to know!! I bet he is OT some nights... we are in the middle of the 3 to 4hr transition.. (about 3.5hrs at the moment). Some days we end up with a little extra time in the evening because he isnt quite having those 2hrs naps.. most of the time its 3x1.5hrs.. or at least 2x1.5hrs and a CN. When its a CN I know he ends up getting OT but there's not a lot we can do. I do put him to bed earlier on those days but that would definately explain the waking before his DF!

He's 4 months to the day in a week or 17weeks now. I do swaddle, he's a tummy sleeper so he doesn't usually break his swaddle. I use white noise (radio static) and have it going whenever he is asleep.. though on occasion I forget and he seems to sleep okay without it.

He was on omeprazole. I tried ratinidine in the beginning but that made him constipated and didnt seem to actualy stop his grunting / groaning and twisting. As soon as he started on the zoton (omeprazole) it all stopped. He finished the script 3 days ago now... and we haven't had any issues - yet - so I'm hoping he's outgrown it... am concerned it might have been hiding an intolerance though if his poos don't go back to normal soon.

[*Jo*]

Ok we were on Zoton and Caleb was coping ok but he also had an undiagnosed dairy intolerance and it bothered his reflux and we ended up on omeprazole suspension (don't know what the difference was between that and the Zoton but the ped said there was one)
Did your dr say to stop the meds when the script ran out? Because otherwise I would get a refill pronto, we went without meds for a week and he was ok but then it crashed and took about 2-3 weeks to get back on track