5 months soon - good naps hard to come by - OT spiral

[Edesanja]

Yes please Sherry! Esp how did you stop it from being a habit?

I went and read back what Kirry wrote on your post a few weeks ago Eloise
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=175028.15. She was saying in relation to changing from 3-4hr feeding though and we've been at 4hrs for a while.

We had another good-ish nap this morning (did both 2hrs15 A time + the top up feed) and got 1hr26min nap. Will post the whole day later.

[Edesanja]

DF 2150

Monday 23/08
EW 538
E 545
S 620-655 held him
E 705
A 2hrs 15 (did a really short top up feed)
S (905) 911-1037          1hr26min YAY!!
A
E  1105
A 2hrs20 (did another really short top up feed)
S (1245) 1255-1340       45mins (DH said he woke happy)
A 2hrs 20
E 1525
S (1550) 1601-1632        30mins
A 2hrs45min +
E 1740
S (1805) 1915-1932
S 1937 - 2015     (cried out at 1950)
S 2020
Cried out 2040

Night = 10ish hours
Day = 2hr45min
Total = 12hrs45min (approx)
Total

I feel like I'm wavering again - this time with A time after CN. Need a plan for what to do because bed time is just a scream fest. I feel like he's losing the ability to put himself to sleep at this time of day too. I decided tonight (about 45mins into it) not to pat him though - totally didn't help yesterday. So I just laid my hand on his back. He just screamed and screamed.

I had him in bed at 1hr40 today (I reviewed my notes and the last time we had a stress-free bedtime was Tues 17/08 (see reply #10 on this thread)). It was 2hrs 45 before he got go sleep but then has woken a bunch of times after that. I don't know what to try though. 1hr40 seemed reasonable to me (not like yesterday when I had him back in bed at 1hr A time). I think maybe he does still need a long A time though after a CN (maybe the same as how he doesn't sleep better with a shortened A time after a short nap).

Should I slightly increase the first A time to see if he will lengthen the first nap? I'm a bit scared too since it feels like a miracle that he's sleeping almost an 1hr30 for the first time in AGES.

I am also tempted to stretch the second A time a bit maybe 2hrs25 if he by some miracle does a good first nap for the third day in a row. He has woken happy from the second nap both days (though tbh he rarely wakes crying - usually pushes himself up (sleeps on tummy) and looks around for a while then starts grizzling when he's had enough tummy time :)

What do you think?

[Shiv52]

Hey there

Have tried to catch up.  Looking at Mondays EASY, I would have extended the pm nap and if that didn't work would have reduced the next A time.  I think he just got himself into an OT state and this went on the rest of the day.  At 5 months typical day sleep is about 4-5 hours and maybe tried a longer nap at the CN.  Did he wake at 30 minutes or did you waken him?    You mentioned that you would prefer a short nap in the am as you go out in earlier posts, have you decided not to do this? 

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.0

Do you (and DH) consistently extend naps?  At 5 months I consistently tried to extend naps for 10-15 minutes if she woke early and it really helped. 

I woke concentrate on getting that AM nap consistent for a couple more days before adding any more A time to it. 

Is the DF working?  If not I would drop it.  Just wanted to add it is NOT unusual for a bf baby to have a night feed at this age.   So it your last feed is 5-6pm it is not unreasonable to wake at 4-5am to get fed and then go back to sleep so as long as he is resettling after it I wouldn't worry too much about it.  He will drop the night feed when he is ready and if not you can work on that later on.   

How's the teething going?  Is he still showing signs?  Has your DS got reflux?  Completely under control?  Anything else going on? 

This a tough time and its its any consolation things got much better here once we got rid of the CN so hoping that will help with your LO too xx

[Edesanja]

Thanks Shiv. I so appreciate your thoughts.

I would have extended the pm nap and if that didn't work would have reduced the next A time.

DH gave up because he was happy. I was asleep and he didn't wake me, so when I woke I fed him and put him straight to bed but then the A time wasn't shortened.  

Did he wake at 30 minutes or did you waken him?  

 
Normally I would have shortened the A time before the catnap in hope of it being longer (rare) or at least it would mean he would get to bed earlier. I never wake him from a catnap. It's very rare that CN is even 45mins long so no need to!

You mentioned that you would prefer a short nap in the am as you go out in earlier posts, have you decided not to do this?  

I don't know how to go about it so haven't tried yet in the sense of making it happen. We usually get a short AM nap anyway (30-40 min), then I try without success to lengthen the 2nd nap, he ends up with a 3rd short one and then a CN. [/quote]

Do you (and DH) consistently extend naps?  At 5 months I consistently tried to extend naps for 10-15 minutes if she woke early and it really helped.  

I always try to extend naps. It rarely works. Though sometimes when he wakes early from his 2nd nap I can get him to take another one after about 1hr15 but after about 15min extending in bed I usually get him up and then take him back in there. But that nap is often only 30mins too. He did do a longer one last week sometime when I did APOP. Extending never works for the first nap (though I always try).

I woke concentrate on getting that AM nap consistent for a couple more days before adding any more A time to it.  

Ok.
What A time do I do after a good 1st nap? Do I do the same after a good 2nd nap?
What A time after a short 1st nap?
What A time between CN and bed?

Is the DF working?  If not I would drop it.  Just wanted to add it is NOT unusual for a bf baby to have a night feed at this age.   So it your last feed is 5-6pm it is not unreasonable to wake at 4-5am to get fed and then go back to sleep so as long as he is resettling after it I wouldn't worry too much about it.  He will drop the night feed when he is ready and if not you can work on that later on.  

DF is definitely NOT working. Last night was the worst of his life. OT from the day and bedtime never added up to more than 1 short NW before DF. Last night he woke 3 times and took ages to settle.
I have no problem with feeding in the night - the reason I tried DFing was to see if it helped the napping situation (but I think I've disproven that). He sometimes DOESN'T go back to sleep after a 445-530 feed. I try APOPing it sometimes but that doesn't always work either. I know it's totally reasonable for him to wake for a feed at that time because it's been 10-11-12 hours since his last feed, but he's still very short on night sleep by then so needs to go back to sleep.

How's the teething going?  Is he still showing signs?  Has your DS got reflux?  Completely under control?  Anything else going on?  

Teething seemed to have stopped a couple of days ago. Reflux therefore has better too (except for the screaming we've been having at bedtime. He's been a bit happier and less grizzly during the day - especially after the first nap. Think that's partly because he's not hurting as much but also actually getting a better AM nap!

[Edesanja]

Posting 2 days since the site was down then I had no time to post Tues when it was up again and then it went down again.

Monday night was our worst night ever. Stirring constantly between when he finally got to sleep and Df then NWs that he just wouldn't settle for - I'd say because he had a sore tummy - it was rock hard.

DF 2150
NW 2325-2355

Tuesday
NW 0010 -
NW 310 - can't remember these times now. Was too tired! Held him
W 610
E 620
A 2hrs15
S (820) 824-902        35mins - crying when he woke so tried to resettle then APOPed him
S 925-1040
E 1045
A 2hrs15
S (1250) 1255-1440     1hr45
E 1450
A 2hrs20
S (1650) 1702-1727
A 1hr30
E (1835) 1907          held him until drousy then put him down. Have never done this before but I really didn't want to wreck our good day by him taking all night to get to sleep again.

Night =
Day = 4hours !!!!!!!!!!
Total =


Wed 25/08
NW 350
E 355
S 415-702
W 702
E 720
A
S (910) 915-1100    1hr45
E 1120
A 2hrs12
s (1310) 1312-1345  33min tried to resettle but ended up APOPing him. Mantra cried for quite a long time while I held him before fell asleep
S 1415-1520         1hr05 (woke him)
A 2hrs10 (got really sad from 1hr50 so put him in baby carrier early)
S 1730-1737         7 min   would NOT go back to sleep
E 1810
S (1840) 1910       Did a longer wind down since holding him worked so well yesterday. Put him into bed calm after holding him for 5 mins. He mantra cried on and off a little bit but was such a nice change from all the crying that usually happens.

Night = 11hrs 55mins
Day = 3 hrs 20mins
Total = 15hrs 15mins

[bug_blues70]

Jenny, sorry the DF isn't working and it's making it worse... that was my suggestion

[Shiv52]

Only just on but haven't forgotten you.  Putting DD to bed and I'll be back to have a good read through xx

[EloysH]

Jenny,

I was thinking, if you are going to try the lactease drops that would be an easy next step just to rule out temporary overload.

But I keep thinking about his sore tummy .  I just one wonder if one weeks trial off gluten would be worth trying "just to see".  For suspecting gluten intolerance, look for signs of fermentation of the gut - (similar to lactose overload). If his poos are loose squirty or even explosive, sore tummy, mucus in his poo, needs to be more than just a usual coin size (as we now know).

[Shiv52]

Have a few questions:

Is reflux under control?  The 30-40 minute wakenings during naps can be indicative of reflux annoying them.  As they come out of one sleep cycle in to another the reflux irritates them and wakes them preventing them from moving into the next sleep cycle without help.   

If reflux is  totally under control do you think he may just be a short napper? 

Quote from: Shiv52 on August 23, 2010, 11:14:36 AM
I woke concentrate on getting that AM nap consistent for a couple more days before adding any more A time to it. 
Ok.
What A time do I do after a good 1st nap? Do I do the same after a good 2nd nap?
What A time after a short 1st nap?
What A time between CN and bed?

If you can get a consistent long am nap and are not having any success with extending the others I would probably give myself a break and think to myself that so long as I get one good nap in the morning you will just see how the rest of the day goes. 

So if you do 2.15 A time in the morning and get a good nap (over 1-1.15 hours), I'd do the same A time again but watch for cues and put down sooner if you think he's getting ready for sleep. 

After  a short nap I'd reduce A time to about 1.5 hours?  But it does depend on the LO though. My LO would still manage about 1.45 after a short nap, maybe more.  What do you think he would manage without getting OT? 

If you get a decent CN then do 1.5-1.45 before bed?  1.5 would be what you usually are doing, is it?

s (1310) 1312-1345  33min tried to resettle but ended up APOPing him. Mantra cried for quite a long time while I held him before fell asleep
S 1415-1520         1hr05 (woke him)

Can I ask why you woke him?   To be honest if I spent that long trying to resettle I would have just let him sleep.



With naps I always tried to extend for 10-15 minutes.  If it worked great, if not I just got her up and went with it and put her down early for her next nap. 

Huge {{hugs}}

Our naps were rubbish until about 5.5 months and all of a sudden got two long ones and was able to drop the CN.  Have to say my life was easier though when i decided to just go with the short naps (with 10-15 minutes extending) for a while to give myself a break. 

held him until drousy then put him down. Have never done this before but I really didn't want to wreck our good day by him taking all night to get to sleep again.

Do you normally put him down totally awake?  If holding him until drowsy works I'd do it at this stage especially if naps have been up and down as getting him to bed calmly and easily will help with making sure he's not OT.  Once he's in a more settled routine you can work on putting him down more and more awake again. 

You're doing a great job xx

[Edesanja]

Have a few questions:

Is reflux under control?  The 30-40 minute wakenings during naps can be indicative of reflux annoying them.  As they come out of one sleep cycle in to another the reflux irritates them and wakes them preventing them from moving into the next sleep cycle without help.    

If reflux is  totally under control do you think he may just be a short napper?  

Yes, I believe his reflux is under control. I don't think he's just a short napper. He's been so much HAPPIER in the last week when he's been getting more sleep. He's been delightful!

Quote from: Shiv52 on August 23, 2010, 11:14:36 AM
I woke concentrate on getting that AM nap consistent for a couple more days before adding any more A time to it.  
Ok.
What A time do I do after a good 1st nap? Do I do the same after a good 2nd nap?
What A time after a short 1st nap?
What A time between CN and bed?

If you can get a consistent long am nap and are not having any success with extending the others I would probably give myself a break and think to myself that so long as I get one good nap in the morning you will just see how the rest of the day goes.

This is pretty much opposite of what I'd ideally like since it would mean he's still asleep during DD's activities and then only short napping the rest of the day (and while she's napping too). But I know's it's easiest to get a good first nap. And it's only 3 days a week that I'd rather a short morning nap.

After  a short nap I'd reduce A time to about 1.5 hours?  But it does depend on the LO though. My LO would still manage about 1.45 after a short nap, maybe more.  What do you think he would manage without getting OT?  

I'll check over all my notes but I think the last good naps we got after a short nap were after 2hrs A time. Hasn't been for a while though. It's such a BATTLE to get him down after a short nap. The past two days (I'll post them at the end) have still been 2hrs15 A time after a short nap (we've been out) and he's gone down fine but done another short nap. So I think it needs to be less than normal A time, but not too much less IYKWIM. 2hrs A time sounds about right for this reason too.

If you get a decent CN then do 1.5-1.45 before bed?  1.5 would be what you usually are doing, is it?

Decent CN are very rare here! Usually 20-30min. I've had success with 1hr15-1hr30 this week. Yay! I'll try a bit more if we ever do get a good CN!

s (1310) 1312-1345  33min tried to resettle but ended up APOPing him. Mantra cried for quite a long time while I held him before fell asleep
S 1415-1520         1hr05 (woke him)

Can I ask why you woke him?   To be honest if I spent that long trying to resettle I would have just let him sleep.

It's not quite that simple with two kids! I'd APOPed him to get him to sleep longer but it involved holding him. DD woke up and so I had to go get her. I put DS down and he woke up a few minutes later.

With naps I always tried to extend for 10-15 minutes.  If it worked great, if not I just got her up and went with it and put her down early for her next nap.  

I can usually tell if extending is going to work so I'm prepared to work about 20-25mins if I know it's going to work. Plus I know that putting him down early is so much hard work if I don't extend. I give up pretty quick if it's not looking likely though!

held him until drousy then put him down. Have never done this before but I really didn't want to wreck our good day by him taking all night to get to sleep again.

Do you normally put him down totally awake?  If holding him until drowsy works I'd do it at this stage especially if naps have been up and down as getting him to bed calmly and easily will help with making sure he's not OT.  Once he's in a more settled routine you can work on putting him down more and more awake again.  

[

I always put him down awake. This was the first time that I ever hadn't.


Ok - they answer your questions, but things have changed a bit over the last few days when I haven't been able to post. Overall I feel things are a bit better just because in the last week we HAVE ACTUALLY had some good naps, I CAN APOP him (which I didn't know I could do before!) and he's been getting more day time sleep. Bedtime has gone a lot smoother with a longer wind down, A time of 1hr15ish and not being OT from the day since he's been getting more day sleep.

We haven't hit the magical 2hr15 for the first A time and haven't got good first naps. We've been out after that first short nap and haven't quite got home again in time to put him to bed early. Will aim for 2hrs if it happens again though

These are the days I logged while the site was down

Thurs 26/08
NW 445
W 620
E 655
A  2hr20
S (832) 842-935   45min      couldn't resettle
A
E 1100
A 2hrs15min (we were out)
S (1140) 1150-1235       45min
S 1316-1322, 1328-1435     1hr05min  APOP
A 2hrs30min+
E 1450
A
S (1646) 1704-1710 (in bed), 1720-1749 (APOP)    30min
A  1hr25min
E 1820
S (1900) 1915  

Night = 11hrs 10min
Day = 3hrs 05 min
Total = 14hrs 15min

He learnt to roll front to back a week ago and started busting out of his swaddle doing it in bed yesterday. So I didn't swaddle him today (he's had one arm out to suck his fingers since 9 weeks anyway)

I haven't had any luck resettling him in bed for quite a while. Hope I'm doing the right thing by APOPing him back to sleep. I never have to AP him to sleep at the start of the nap (except for CNs) and he can do long naps on his own so I *think* we're ok.

Friday 27/08
Nw 414
E 420
S 432
W 608?, 618?, 628 DD woke at 608 and when DH went out to her, heard DS stirring on his way through the lounge (DS sleeps in lounge). Don't know if he was actually awake. Heard again 10mins later. Was awake for sure at 628
E 700
A 2hr10-2hr25 (depending on when he woke)
S (827) 835-916 spent ages trying to get him back to sleep because he seemed like he really wanted to (straight away and then after an hour but didn't work. By the time I fed him and got him back in bed...
A 2hrs15
E 1050
S (1126) 1130-1203
A 50mins (couldn't shorten this as was giving DD lunch and putting her to bed)
S 1255-1450 APOP
E 1510
A 2hrs35
S (1704) 1724-1749 (didn't settle in bed though he looked like he was going to - so APOP)
A 1hr15
E 1830
S (1905)-

I'm going to try swaddling him loosly again in case that didn't help things. I'd also like to introduce a lovey but I'm afraid he'll play with it and it'll make things worse! I'm a big fan of loveys and he does have one he associates with sleep in a way (when I lie him on the bed and put his sleeping bag on I give it to him and then he suggles it while we read his book - but I haven't put it in bed with him)


Sorry for the long post. I so appreciate your help!

[Edesanja]

Jenny,

I was thinking, if you are going to try the lactease drops that would be an easy next step just to rule out temporary overload.

But I keep thinking about his sore tummy .  I just one wonder if one weeks trial off gluten would be worth trying "just to see".  For suspecting gluten intolerance, look for signs of fermentation of the gut - (similar to lactose overload). If his poos are loose squirty or even explosive, sore tummy, mucus in his poo, needs to be more than just a usual coin size (as we now know).

Eloise, I haven't eaten any bread with soy flour for 10 days. I think the soy flour was having a bigger impact than I thought (and kind of makes sense since I only ever ate bread for lunch and then he was a bit fussy in the afternoon and very fussy at bedtime). I've been using lacteeze for 5 days now and will continue till the packet is used up which I think will be about Saturday. Working really hard to make him empty one side before starting the next plus the lacteeze seems to have made a big difference too.  We've had no mucous and feeding in the afternoon and evening has got A LOT better

As for naps - I'll update at the end of the day. All I can say is my little guy never ceases to surprise me! (although so far today it's been in a good way!). How I'm meant to make sense of what he does though, I don't know!

[Edesanja]

Mon 30/08

NW 506-520
E 510
W 627
Get up 645
E 710
A 2hr15 (2hr from getting up)
S (842) 844-932
A 22mins
S 954-1142 (extended in bed!! - second time in two days that I was able to - hasn't happened for a long time!)
E 1145
A 2hr 15
S (1355) 1358-1431 (started grizzling after 2hrs A time. Got what I thought were very clear tired signs - brushing his face (don't see it often) sucking fingers and even closed his eyes while I cradled him in my arms between swaddling and bed !as if to say definitely sleep time now- was quite funny)
E 1515
A 2hr25
S (1650) 1656-1732 (had to pick up DD - hoped he would sleep in the car but totally wishful thinking considering it never ever happens so had to wait till home)
A 1hr30
E 1810
S (1842) 1857

Night = 11hr30min
Day = 3hr 30min
Total= 15hrs

I don't really know why I was able to extend him this morning after a 45min nap - after 2hr15 A time I wouldn't have expected him to be OT. He confuses me so much! And I didn't want to wake him since long naps are such a rarity but I think I probably should have since I think he used up most of his day sleep allocation in one go :/ I couldn't get him to have more than 30min in the afternoon. He didn't seem OT at all though this afternoon.

I looked up what I did with DD at this age we were doing short AM nap, long PM nap and a cat nap. Exactly what I'd like to be doing now. How would you suggest I go about it?  Should I just freeze the 1st A time at 2hr15 so I get a 45min nap, then try and get that second A time right. With DD at 5.5months she was doing 2.5-3hrs after a 45min nap and sleeping 2-3hrs at lunchtime. That would be HEAVEN right now with J!

E and J have incredibly similar personalities (though we still had a lot of problems with long naps at this age with E she was naturally a better sleeper than J is). Both are spirited.

Another thing I remembered when looking at old posts from DD: I started calculating A time from the time I got her up since I could never be certain when she woke. Should I do this with J too? (kind of makes this morning even more confusing though since he was asleep 2hrs after he got up). It drove me insane trying to figure out when E woke - it would make it so much easier!

The other thing that appeals to my controlling side which likes predictablilty is that it makes the day more 'set'. If I always get him up at a similar time, then 1st nap is at a similar time (and if it's always 45mins, then second nap is at a similar time. When DD was a bit older and we were doing the 2-1 switch our days worked like this - kind of set in that I never moved her nap earlier if she woke earlier (to prevent EW). I'd still kind of go on A times, but changes happened less through the day and more after seeing patterns over a couple of days (if you understand what I mean - finding it hard to explain myself!).

[bug_blues70]

I'd still kind of go on A times, but changes happened less through the day and more after seeing patterns over a couple of days (if you understand what I mean - finding it hard to explain myself!).

That's what I do... if an atime doesn't work in a particular day, I give it one or two more days to see if it's a pattern or a one off before I try to change it. Seems to work well for me not to adjust atimes each day depending on nap times. Whatever time she wakes up, her atime is the same whether it was a 45 min nap or a 2 hour nap. Is that's what you're talking about... ? I only adjust atimes if I see a pattern over several days.