MPI and Poo - wayyy tmi.

[LizzieN]

I have to admit I am a little worried about cutting out more foods because I don't really know where to start and I also don't know if I'm just crazy....Gluten worries me because so many products that I have had in the past that were gluten free contain soy (which is a bit silly really)...I've got a good cookie book that's minus all of the 8 major allergens, gluten, dairy, soy, eggs, nuts etc so I KNOW that I can make snacky things if I need to (will just have to do some food purchases over the internet)...but to be honest if I have to cut anything more I'm going to need nutritionist help esp since Cs weight gain is already marginal, so I'm going to need to be really careful that my milk is not reduced by an ED.

Eloise you mentioned that you think Ks weight gain is limited by his food intolerances, do you know what the mechanism is...does he do lots of nasty poos (therefore has malabsorption) when exposed to foods that don't agree?  Sorry that you have had another rough week on that one, hugs, it's so hard when you are trying your best to get them fat and it doesn't work!!

Hugs to all
xx

[Gypsymom]

Gypsymom - what did you cut out next (after dairy and soy)?

I dropped peanuts and all other nuts shortly thereafter. Then I got a clue that eggs might be a problem. After that I decided to just ditch all the 'most allergenic' foods and from then on, we were pretty good in the wind department. As Elo says, some of the other foods caused different types of reactions, but the sleep really improved once he wasn't always wriggling, kicking, and complaining. For us, it was the low wind that really disturbed him.

Just on a hunch that a diet too low in fat would spell trouble for my milk supply, I drizzle sunflower oil over everything I eat (I even stir a little in with my rice porridge and I can't taste it or tell it's there) and for the most part, I think my supply is still okay. I take calcium, HA probiotics, and a good HA multi. I have worried about supply levels since I struggled with it with DS1, although most of that started around this age, so hopefully it's not going to rear it's head again. I think part of it was that he was a big and frequent eater, but that was how he coped (I didn't recognize that he had issues).

Interestingly, both constipation and diarrhea can both be signs of a troubled tummy.

Apparently gin and vodka are pretty safe as far as intolerances go. Hope you can relax a little tonight.

[EloysH]

The problem with food intolerance and weight gain according to the paed is primarily that their appetite drops.  So they eat less at each feed and eat less frequently due to general discomfort in their stomach/intestines/bowel. 

The malabsorption thing is more when things gets really bad, and their gut is suffering due to alot of exposure to the problem food/substance/chemical.  I initially worried about gut damage for Kai, but the paed explained that he would be quite unsettled and his poos would be really off - she suggested a simple blood test for iron and other various vitamins and blood count.  If these were all low, that would indicate he is not absorbing well.  But I declined the test, It seemed overkill, essentially it was, because he gained really well that week.

I think cutting gluten is really very hard I did get very hungry in the first few weeks (no matter how much you prepare snacks etc, its jsut a really really big change) which can't have been good for my milk. However, the trade off for me was a much more comfortable bub.   With the gluten I may be wrong but the osteo who put me onto it said that it would only take about 5-7 days of no gluten to see an improvement, which was very true for me, and same to get a reaction.  My dietician says that most bubs who are sensitive to gluten will react to the gluten food challenge in 24-48 hours.      What I am getting at, is if it is all short term then one week off gluten would be well worth it. Maybe you could verify this info with someone before considering trialling a gluten exclusion?

In hindsight I would go for the whole ED for 3 weeks and not stuff around with eliminating one thing at a time, but it s a big step to take, I would recommend professional support to get thru that.

Ditto to what Shannon said about eggs - they were a big windy thing for Kai.

[LizzieN]

Hi Eloise,
Thanks for that info about slow growth, it has been playing on my mind that C doesn't have frequent runny poos so in my mind I couldn't see how an intolerance would cause slow gain, but after this week and all the wind she has been having I don't see how she could possibly be feeding to full potential!!!  It's really good to have that confirmed

I will def talk to the doctor about where to go from here and whether a gluten exclusion would be worth while....I'm not really sure what resources would be available to us if we decided to do a bit ED, don't really know anyone IRL who has had to do more than one or two things so have no idea if there would be anyone to guide me through this!  Also I am in two minds whether her wind would warrant such a change (iykwim, not trying to be lazy)...she is a happy little girl, but the wind does really hurt her.

I've never noticed a huge problem with eggs, we don't eat a lot of them but when I've had scrambled eggs or something like that I have not seen a huge reaction....Her farts do smell like rotten egg gas though...sorry more TMI!!!!!  Honestly they would take an adult on most of the time!!

Guess I will see what the doc has to say, hope she is a good doctor, haven't seen her before!  It is hard because I see a healthy, smiley little girl, she dosen't have huge issues, but this wind (and reflux) just strikes me as not right...don't know if I'm being paranoid because of our experience with DS or whether there really is more to it...

Sorry I'm rambling, thanks for all your help beautiful ladies, you are THE BEST

xx

P.S. Liz how is M going now???

[*Liz*]

Sounds like we are in a similar spot really Lizzie. Megan had a few WONDERFUL days and really thought we had cracked it - she ate well, slept well, and so much of the wind settled.

Obviously the last 2 days have been a real mess  . Her tummy is tinkling with wind, and basically she needs a poo. Has been 3 days now, and she has stopped passing much wind out and just keeps straining.

I do think the fenugreek upset her - but now I'm wondering about other stuff as well. Can't think if anything very exciting I have eaten though. Being sensible about it I think she needs another 2ish weeks of pure MSPI diet before I jump to any new conclusions. And hopefully that will be when her next GI appointment is.

Megan sounds the same though - she can be a very happy little darling - but the wind and tummy aches upsets her sleep and that makes her miserable.

[LizzieN]

Hi Liz, Shannon, Marsha and Eloise

Liz, sorry to hear things have regressed, it is massively disappointing isn't it??!! Hope it's only a temporary setback for you all....isn't it funny that we are both in a similar place at a similar time a bit like last time??!!  xox

Well had another ROTTEN night with C, knew we would it seems par for the course these days.  I was up with her from 2am until 6am and then hubby came out and took over 'cause I was going to do my nut with her....same deal, eating because she is mega gassy but then not being able to pass out because she is so gassy!  She also did another poo early this morning (which I think also kept her awake 'cause we didn't realise and she doesn't like having a dirty bum) so that is 4 poos in 2 1/2 days (after a 6 day gap)....So now I am thinking that the dairy/soy free diet might be helping with the regularity.  We did have a 9 day gap before that but I suspect it was because she had been on antibiotics for the chest infection.  Before she went on the abs she did the same pattern no poos for a while then one a day or two a day for a few days....maybe that is her new pattern now that she doesn't have dairy and soy in her diet.

Sorry tmi but her poos did have stingy green bits, some lumps (which I think are normal), was liquidy and dark mustard/greenish tinged.

Another thing I don't get with C is that she doesn't strain to do a poo....she farts and farts and farts but doesn't push....it's really odd!  My mum keeps suggesting giving her something to help the poos along, but she isn't blocked up it's like she just doesn't get the urge to go even though her tummy is a huge mess!!!  Odd.

Shannon I'm still laughing about the vodka comment I could actually do with a drink one of these days but usually don't when I am bfing, and also not knowing these days how long it will be before she wakes with wind (the only thing that calms her down is a bf) I wouldn't risk it, although she would sleep better...hmmmm!!!

Thanks to all for your feedback again, I am finding this really helpful to sort my head out and the questions that I have, can't believe how clever you all are xox
Love to you all and your little darlings
xx

[Mrs Coops]

The problem with food intolerance and weight gain according to the paed is primarily that their appetite drops.  So they eat less at each feed and eat less frequently due to general discomfort in their stomach/intestines/bowel.

Mmm, that's interesting! I'm having day feeding issues, he'll have a little then fights it, but if I express a little he'll almost attack it! He only gets upset if I keep offering him, as soon as I put my boob away he's happy! But he just doesn't seem interested!
  At night he takes a full feed, no fussing and he can't latch fast enough!
 We're on holiday now. I'm screwed trying to maintain an ED as no idea what's in anything, so we'll see what happens. I can't tell what his poops are like in this room, false lighting makes everything look green, typical!

[LizzieN]

Enjoy your holiday sweetie, I guess you would call it a diet challenge   Same issue here, she often gets upset when I get the breast out...which is a bit upsetting really!!!  I wouldn't say it's massive food aversion, but when she doesn't want it she lets me know, BIG time!!

xx

[Gypsymom]

Sorry tmi but her poos did have stingy green bits, some lumps (which I think are normal), was liquidy and dark mustard/greenish tinged.

That and super smelly wind both sound to me like things are happening in her guts the way you would hope. It's so tiring, isn't it!?

Will she take a bottle? I'm really not much of a drinker either, but maybe we should pick a date and then all have a virtual toast (leaving DHs to do the first night feed)! Full disclosure: my DH has never done any feeds at night

[*Liz*]

How often are you ladies offering the breast now? I tend to lean to proper on demand feeding only on refluxy days.

[EloysH]

3.5 hourly (on demand - so ends up between 3-3 hrs 45 mins)  and then sometimes with a top up about 15 mins before nap if he seems to be looking for it, or if the previous feed was too short for my liking.  The extra light feed seems to help with getting longer sleeps, he is only 45 min napping once every 3 days now.

[Mrs Coops]

No idea Liz! I don't have any routine now! Although he did have a huge feed on the beach earlier and he hadn't long been up. Then he had another feed before his nap! I think he's getting it every 2 hours, but he threw up a load this morning so I guess he's playing catch up!

[Gypsymom]

3.5 hourly (on demand - so ends up between 3-3 hrs 45 mins)  and then sometimes with a top up about 15 mins before nap if he seems to be looking for it, or if the previous feed was too short for my liking.  The extra light feed seems to help with getting longer sleeps, he is only 45 min napping once every 3 days now.

We're about the same, although my naps aren't quite so strong yet.

[LizzieN]

We are on a 4 hourly EAEAS, so I feed at the beginning and 1.5 hours (any later and she won't take it) then down to bed at approx 2 hours...hopefully for a nice 2 hour nap, sometimes works sometimes not!!!

So we went to the doctor today and the doctor was very reasurring about Cs weight gain and that sort of thing, but didn't see any point in me eliminating foods from my diet.  She said she couldn't see any reason for me eliminating dairy and soy and that she didn't think it was necessary to cut out anything else!!  Of course C was all smiles and goo goo gah gahs

I am still going to maintain the dairy and soy free because I do feel that she is pooing more frequently since I cut them out and I'm considering reducing my gluten intake but will have to have a good think about it as I know it's a huge diet change.  She basically said to me that babies that poo infrequently always have a huge wind build up to the poo and the smelly farts are to be expected when that is what she is doing....She also said it's likely that our babies have touchy GI systems and that it may well be something they notice throughout their life (not so reasurring!!)....oh well, was worth the discussion.

What do you all think?

Hugs to you all and lots a love
xx

[EloysH]

I don't know Lizzie, I think the doc sounds like she is making sense but she doesn't know the daily ins and outs of C's symptoms.    I know the poos and the wind is very important  but I was thinking what are her other symptoms like since you have been dairy/soy free?

I mean, if she was truly MPI she would be in alot of pain and unsettled with the reflux symptoms when you are eating it, and quite happy settled off it.  Do you feel that you need to do a dairy challenge - the glass of milk to check?     

AS for gluten/ or no gluten: - If you ignore what her poos look like and ignore the pooing frequency, do you feel she is still a bit too unsettled/in pain for your liking?    Is the unsettledness only linked to the build up to a poo and the associated wind or is it more?  If it was more/other times then I would look at doing the gluten stuff - esp since her poos seem more than just a 'bit' of mucus. ...  But otherwise, you night decide - "this is a good as she will get".  Follow your gut instinct.

Hmm so hard,  the good thing if you did cut gluten for a while to see you would only need to cut it for a week or so to notice anything.   Just be careful to make the foods you replace gluten with to be as varies as possible you don't want a build up of something else to cause a reaction.